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My children are adults now, but when they were growing up we wanted them to pursue productive creative endeavours so that they could learn life skills and figur

My children are adults now, but when they were growing up we wanted them to pursue productive creative endeavours so that they could learn life skills and figure out what they want to do with their lives. Our goal was to help them achieve self-sufficiency so that they could move out and feed themselves. I'm not 65 yet, but once I am I hope that others will recognize my productive achievements and will leave me the hell alone to do whatever I want to with the rest of my limited time here on earth. If that means sitting on my ass doing nothing - that's my choice and my right. It's not hypocrisy. A child and a retiree are not even remotely comparable. One is accountable to their parents, the other has likely worked their ass off for decades to earn a bit of down time.

yamazakiwi 4y ago
I do agree that they are difficult to compare directly as the scenarios are quite different. I can also say that your attitude towards raising children is the minority, most parents will let a tv or tablet babysit for them unfortunately.
jonny_eh 4y ago
- DougN7 4y ago
  I don’t understand where this sentiment comes from. Don’t vote?? It’s not like being tired is being dead. The status of the world/country/society still impacts older people too.
  - chrsig 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - Karunamon 4y ago
      Replace "boomers" with any other demographic group if you wish to understand why this is an ugly statement to be making. Hint: it isn't because "boomers" are more vulnerable to misinformation
      - bawolff 4y ago
        > Hint: it isn't because "boomers" are more vulnerable to misinformation Is this actually true though? Well all demographics are vulnerable to misinformation, seniors do seem on average somewhat easier to manipulate. There is a reason that scams often target seniors, it isn't because all groups are equally susciptible to manipulation.
      - dylan604 4y ago
        It's lovely to see that the youth of today know everything just like the youth of your day (my day, whatevs). The boomers get made fun of by the kids because they don't know tech, but the kids don't want to admit that they fall prey to the similar scams/conspiracies/blah just because it comes from some influencer.
- mitchdoogle 4y ago
  What's doing whatever you want have to do with voting? You suggesting that people who have leisure time shouldn't be voting?
  - bawolff 4y ago
    I dont agree with the setiment, but i think the logical connection is the social contract of voting: in exchange for the right to chose leaders, the citizenry are expected to be informed voters. I suspect the parent post is allegeding that those who watch tv all day are remiss in their duties as an elector.
    - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
      Sounds like the justification that was used to deny the right to vote to people, mostly minorities, that couldn't pass a poll test.
      - bawolff 4y ago
        Or like the current justification for why non-citizens cant vote. But yes, i agree it is a very easily abused slipery slope and why i dont agree with the sentiment except in a hortatory sense.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
NoraCodes 4y ago
It's hard not to interpret this as a kind of "youth is wasted on the young" sentiment - that children shouldn't be allowed to do things they enjoy if those things are seen as wasteful, but that retirees should. I'd submit that society might be better off if we only required people to work to a degree reasonable for their mental and physical health, and didn't frame our entire lives around "getting somewhere" so we could finally be left alone. That might mean profits stop growing quite as quickly, but I think that's a fair trade for people actually being happier.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  Better yet, why not snuff people when they get to 30? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan%27s_Run_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan%27s_Run_(film)
- ar_lan 4y ago
  I think the same thing. The concept of retiring early has never made sense to me - but I enjoy writing software, and building things, and learning things, etc. Financial independence does make sense to me, but only in-so-much that I want to be able to generally provide for my family, and have enough slight cushion to be able to take drastic creative risks and not have to starve to do so. I don't mind if I'm working when I'm 70/80 (as long as I'm physically capable to) - I do mind if I'm slogging 60hr weeks, doing things I'm not interested in, at those ages however.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
    I'm "retired," but that's mostly because I ran into a bunch of the types of folks that have been adding to the comments on this story, and gave up on looking for work. I won't go, where I'm not wanted. Best damn thing that ever happened to me. I "retired" at 55, and have been more productive, in the last five years, than I probably was, in the previous 20. It's amazing what happens when you don't have clueless, jargon-addled middle managers, interfering with the projects, and destroying work productivity. The coroner is gonna need to rub "YTЯƎWϘ" off my cheek.
  - 4y ago
sgustard 4y ago
There's also something childlike about elders as they experience mental decline. There's a reason we try to protect people from "elder scams." Personally I hope if I'm found in front of the TV absorbing conspiracy theories for hours a day somebody clocks me on the head and drags me to safety.
- waboremo 4y ago
  Especially as more "elder scams" resort to tapping into their loneliness to encourage action, it's important families and communities pay more attention to this growing problem of elders attached to their screens.
  - onecommentman 4y ago
    There aren’t more scams of that nature…they’ve been around forever. You’re just more aware of them, there are more elderly around and it is easier for anonymous scammers to target the elderly with today’s IT. Protecting the elderly is an IT problem worth working on. I hear there are several thousand FAANG types at loose ends at the moment…
    - MandieD 4y ago
      When every major mobile or desktop OS update comes with compulsory interface changes, hiding some routine action, it breaks down many users’ faith in themselves to figure out how to do things on their computers or phones, making them more susceptible to tech support scams and other online malice, but especially older users who patiently wrote down the steps for important but infrequent operations.
- bumby 4y ago
  I think this misses the productivity aspect of the parent's comment. Conceivably, there is a bigger productivity hit with young people since the assumption may be that retired people's most productive years are behind them * * I do recognize all the problems with this assumption, like the fact that older people can continue to be productive in retirement, even if it's not necessarily economically productive. I also cringe at the idea that a society is always hyper-focused on productivity. Despite all that, I also know it's a common viewpoint.
bawolff 4y ago
I find the view that productive achievements are a chore, a thing, that once accomplished, thankfully we never have to do again, kind of sad. What's the point of living if not to interact with the world?
- MouseTown 4y ago
  How about raising children with the stated goal of having them move out?
  - bawolff 4y ago
    I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I'm not suggesting you should do the same productive achievement all your life. Life changes and so should your goals as time moves on. Also, why are you having children if your only goal is to get rid of them? Yes, part of having children is hoping and preparing for them to eventually be independent adults, but that's hardly the only thing raising children is about.
- myaccount9786 4y ago
  I disagree that consuming media and participating online is not "interacting with the world". I spend a lot of my free time reading Wikipedia, watching YouTube, and playing games. This content comes from "the world". At my job I sit in front of a computer and interact with people via text and voice call. This is interacting with "the world". I don't understand why we fetishize in-person interaction as being "the world" and virtual interaction as "not the world". What about reading books? Would you criticize someone for reading too many books? Does that person not have a "point in living" in your opinion? In my opinion, this is a true Scotsman fallacy. And the bias is due to nostalgia.
  - myaccount9786 4y ago
    That being said, I think there is a general bias in American culture towards "making something of yourself", which results in the act of participating in non-productive activities (ex: "mindless tv" such as gameshows, infomercials) as something which you need an excuse to do. For example: "I need to de-stress so I can be productive tomorrow". When you get old, this excuse is no longer possible. Which is why folks refer to vegetating like this as "sad". A hedonistic/utilitarian framework is a better model to look at these situations. Is that elderly individual enjoying themselves? Yes. Will their inaction today result in negative consequences (financial, health, etc.) later in life? No. In this framework, it's a perfectly good use of their time then. As a redneck, I love America. But I think this question posed by the OP is interesting because it shows the tradeoff everyone must make in American culture between exercising individual freedoms and increasing social credit/value/standing.
MouseTown 4y ago
You have the “right” as much as the next person but society is most benefited from those with experience helping those without. The argument that you deserve to watch TV all day because you once had a job is curious.
- dylan604 4y ago
  Then by your argument, there should be no young teachers as what the hell kind of experiences could they possibly have to teach?
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    Teachers don’t teach experiential knowledge
    - dylan604 4y ago
      That is probably the saddest thing I have read all day. The best teachers I ever had were the ones that taught the subject material but from a relatable manner based on their years of experience. Yes, the best teachers I personally had were older.
      - oneoff786 4y ago
        Feels like you’re making emotional appeals to make the previous responder look out of touch in this post, and the previous, in opposite directions. The best teachers I ever had were kind, smart, and well funded.
        dylan604 4y ago
        The first post was that old timers not sharing their experiences was bad which in my mind extrapolates to old timers should all be teachers. The second post was that acknowledging the fact that teachers no longer teach but instruct based on a preset curriculum arranged to get grades for specific tests higher. The fuzzy logic in my head might not be clear to me let alone others, but I feel you're trying to make something out of nothing as well.
thwayunion 4y ago
My MiL spends 10+ hours a day watching conspiracy theory videos on the internet (used to be YouTube, but now a lot of the channels are suspended so she uses alternative sites). It doesn't make her happy, it isn't good for her physical health, and it causes extreme social isolation. Anger and conspiracy completely dominate her personality. We can't go more than 10-20 minutes without some sort of serious accusation, which are often passive-aggressive and accusatory toward people in the room. She has directly accused me of multiple serious felonies and conspiracies, by virtue of the fact that I work in tech. She is no longer allowed to visit one of her daughters because my BiL (wife's sister's husband?) is not on speaking terms with her. She chooses not to visit another daughter. She floats around church social groups, who all sort of give her a few months and then punt her to the next group. To be clear: these aren't down to major political disagreements. Most of her family and friend group are all on the same page. Even her Q Anon neighbor won't speak with her anymore. It's bad. She has no friends and is slowly losing her family. When she visits us for holidays we have to warn friends not to engage with the fights she tries to pick. We train them on how to treat her as they would a child without being patronizing. It's hard. She is not happy, and I wish we could get her to spend less time watching videos on the internet.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  > She floats around church social groups, who all sort of give her a few months and then punt her to the next group. My teenager and her friends know someone like this who they described as "speedrunning friendships", and honestly that's the best description you're going to hear.
  - thwayunion 4y ago
    It's even worse. She cycles through, as in multiple times with each group. The church knows her issues, so they cycle her through 3-4 small groups for a few months at a time so that she's included and taken care of but not overly burdensome on any particular group of people.
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
taurath 4y ago
> It's not hypocrisy. A child and a retiree are not even remotely comparable. One is accountable to their parents, the other has likely worked their ass off for decades to earn a bit of down time. Interesting that the perceived needs of people change over time based on how productive they are or were. This belies a sort of strangely managerial/administrative mindset as to the values that make a person "valid" to take time to pursue things they enjoy, and "earn" down time.
thenerdhead 4y ago
I like this perspective. It reads like the Ben Franklin quote: “Many young men die at age 25, but are not buried until they're 75.”
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> will leave me the hell alone to do whatever I want to with the rest of my limited time here on earth. Many elders are left to wither away alone, and loneliness of older people is a rampant issue - they want to feel loved or at least feel relevant in the family and not forgotten.
kevinventullo 4y ago
Okay deal, we’ll leave you alone if you promise not to vote.
lmm 4y ago
Children are more stressed and have less free time than anyone else; it's not their fault that they're legally barred from doing anything "productive". They're not even allowed to vote on the laws that bind them!
parker_mountain 4y ago
> A child and a retiree are not even remotely comparable. Excessive consumption of low quality media is both bad for the brain and bad for society. > leave me the hell alone to do whatever I want to with the rest of my limited time here on earth If that means being manipulated by aggressive algorithms designed to keep you locked in and wasting your limited time, that's fine for you. Personally, I find it horrifying.
programmarchy 4y ago
Dude, hell no. This is an incredibly entitled outlook. You don't get to check out and look at your phone while your children or grandchildren want your attention. As an elder, you're expected to invest your time and wisdom into the next generation, not sit around on your ass doing nothing. Sure, maybe it's your right to squander your experience, but if it's also your choice then you deserve no respect. There's also the looming reality that as you continue to age, you'll be less capable of caring for yourself. Hopefully your children will take care of you, at least until they grow sick of you. And the caretakers in a nursing home certainly won't give a damn about your "productive achievements" when they're changing your diaper. You're right about one thing. A child and a retiree are not comparable. You should hold yourself to a much higher standard than a child.
rconti 4y ago
The blogpost was clearly written about parents who had no such high aspirations for their children, though.
bravetraveler 4y ago
This feels like a programmed response the article calls out Parents are accountable to the children, just as you say the children are to the parents. That's what relationships are. You're right in that generally it's none of my business how my father spends his days. However, decades of the outrage figure on TV have shown that aspects of how he spends his time are not only his concern. Had he listened to the majority of the family he'd still have those relationships Even now as an estranged adult, I'd appreciate his (non-deranged) input
- lupire 4y ago
  > You're right in that generally it's none of my business how my father spends his days. Why would you say that? Family relationships matter.
  - bravetraveler 4y ago
    True, that's the thesis of my post! This is the struggle, respecting autonomy while still caring for someone Say I saw his health declining, I'd mention it - but I probably wouldn't expect much of it either, considering Edit: thinking on it, the effectiveness comes down to method Articles like this one are understandably inflammatory. Similarly, if I called my father something awful, I couldn't expect a good result. Asking how he feels does nothing We'd both be better off if I offered to cook him some meals, for example
itishappy 4y ago
> I'm not 65 yet, but once I am I hope that others will recognize my productive achievements and will leave me the hell alone to do whatever I want to with the rest of my limited time here on earth. 100% reasonable. If you're done contributing and want to sit the rest out you're welcome to in my book. But I suspect that most people keep at least 1 hand on the reigns in a critical way: they vote. If you're planning on influencing the lives of the following generations, I think it's pretty reasonable to be concerned about your mental well being.
- rsj_hn 4y ago
  Honestly I would much rather trust a voter who spends a lot of hours watching TV than someone who spends a lot of hours on social media.
  - itishappy 4y ago
    I wouldn't. I suspect it's a lot easier to bump into differing viewpoints on social media than sitting in front of [insert channel here] for 8 hours a day. But I'm not at all confident in this, and I think that's the point. I think they're both likely to fuck you up, so I think it's reasonable to be concerned about both.
    - JediLuke 4y ago
- myaccount9786 4y ago
  This seems like a reasonable argument until you go deeper. > most people keep at least 1 hand on the reins in a critical way: they vote > it's reasonable to be concerned about [old people's] mental well being. So you're saying old people shouldn't be allowed to vote... because they're mentally incapable? I remember one time in American history when certain folks decided certain other folks were mentally incapable of voting... (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test)
quitit 4y ago
Controversially I think the problem with taking this point of view is that it's also an argument for why seniors shouldn't be allowed to vote. However, I think old people should be allowed to vote. So really what we should be looking at is something more nuanced - that perhaps excessive screen time is wasteful, maybe even exploitative, even for seniors. There is certainly an unevenness to the moral panic of children with screen time - but moderation is key, not blanket statements.
underwater 4y ago
To take a contrarian view: Raising kids is not curing cancer, having a fruitful career isn't solving world hunger. Many people get to retirement age having worked hard for their own benefit, nothing more. How does that earn them the right to contribute nothing productive back to society for the rest of their years?

yamazakiwi 4y ago

I do agree that they are difficult to compare directly as the scenarios are quite different. I can also say that your attitude towards raising children is the minority, most parents will let a tv or tablet babysit for them unfortunately.

jonny_eh 4y ago

DougN7 4y ago
I don’t understand where this sentiment comes from. Don’t vote?? It’s not like being tired is being dead. The status of the world/country/society still impacts older people too.
- chrsig 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - Karunamon 4y ago
    Replace "boomers" with any other demographic group if you wish to understand why this is an ugly statement to be making. Hint: it isn't because "boomers" are more vulnerable to misinformation
    - bawolff 4y ago
      > Hint: it isn't because "boomers" are more vulnerable to misinformation Is this actually true though? Well all demographics are vulnerable to misinformation, seniors do seem on average somewhat easier to manipulate. There is a reason that scams often target seniors, it isn't because all groups are equally susciptible to manipulation.
    - dylan604 4y ago
      It's lovely to see that the youth of today know everything just like the youth of your day (my day, whatevs). The boomers get made fun of by the kids because they don't know tech, but the kids don't want to admit that they fall prey to the similar scams/conspiracies/blah just because it comes from some influencer.
mitchdoogle 4y ago
What's doing whatever you want have to do with voting? You suggesting that people who have leisure time shouldn't be voting?
- bawolff 4y ago
  I dont agree with the setiment, but i think the logical connection is the social contract of voting: in exchange for the right to chose leaders, the citizenry are expected to be informed voters. I suspect the parent post is allegeding that those who watch tv all day are remiss in their duties as an elector.
  - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
    Sounds like the justification that was used to deny the right to vote to people, mostly minorities, that couldn't pass a poll test.
    - bawolff 4y ago
      Or like the current justification for why non-citizens cant vote. But yes, i agree it is a very easily abused slipery slope and why i dont agree with the sentiment except in a hortatory sense.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

NoraCodes 4y ago

It's hard not to interpret this as a kind of "youth is wasted on the young" sentiment - that children shouldn't be allowed to do things they enjoy if those things are seen as wasteful, but that retirees should. I'd submit that society might be better off if we only required people to work to a degree reasonable for their mental and physical health, and didn't frame our entire lives around "getting somewhere" so we could finally be left alone. That might mean profits stop growing quite as quickly, but I think that's a fair trade for people actually being happier.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
Better yet, why not snuff people when they get to 30? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan%27s_Run_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan%27s_Run_(film)
ar_lan 4y ago
I think the same thing. The concept of retiring early has never made sense to me - but I enjoy writing software, and building things, and learning things, etc. Financial independence does make sense to me, but only in-so-much that I want to be able to generally provide for my family, and have enough slight cushion to be able to take drastic creative risks and not have to starve to do so. I don't mind if I'm working when I'm 70/80 (as long as I'm physically capable to) - I do mind if I'm slogging 60hr weeks, doing things I'm not interested in, at those ages however.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  I'm "retired," but that's mostly because I ran into a bunch of the types of folks that have been adding to the comments on this story, and gave up on looking for work. I won't go, where I'm not wanted. Best damn thing that ever happened to me. I "retired" at 55, and have been more productive, in the last five years, than I probably was, in the previous 20. It's amazing what happens when you don't have clueless, jargon-addled middle managers, interfering with the projects, and destroying work productivity. The coroner is gonna need to rub "YTЯƎWϘ" off my cheek.
- 4y ago

sgustard 4y ago

There's also something childlike about elders as they experience mental decline. There's a reason we try to protect people from "elder scams." Personally I hope if I'm found in front of the TV absorbing conspiracy theories for hours a day somebody clocks me on the head and drags me to safety.

waboremo 4y ago
Especially as more "elder scams" resort to tapping into their loneliness to encourage action, it's important families and communities pay more attention to this growing problem of elders attached to their screens.
- onecommentman 4y ago
  There aren’t more scams of that nature…they’ve been around forever. You’re just more aware of them, there are more elderly around and it is easier for anonymous scammers to target the elderly with today’s IT. Protecting the elderly is an IT problem worth working on. I hear there are several thousand FAANG types at loose ends at the moment…
  - MandieD 4y ago
    When every major mobile or desktop OS update comes with compulsory interface changes, hiding some routine action, it breaks down many users’ faith in themselves to figure out how to do things on their computers or phones, making them more susceptible to tech support scams and other online malice, but especially older users who patiently wrote down the steps for important but infrequent operations.
bumby 4y ago
I think this misses the productivity aspect of the parent's comment. Conceivably, there is a bigger productivity hit with young people since the assumption may be that retired people's most productive years are behind them * * I do recognize all the problems with this assumption, like the fact that older people can continue to be productive in retirement, even if it's not necessarily economically productive. I also cringe at the idea that a society is always hyper-focused on productivity. Despite all that, I also know it's a common viewpoint.

bawolff 4y ago

I find the view that productive achievements are a chore, a thing, that once accomplished, thankfully we never have to do again, kind of sad. What's the point of living if not to interact with the world?

MouseTown 4y ago
How about raising children with the stated goal of having them move out?
- bawolff 4y ago
  I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I'm not suggesting you should do the same productive achievement all your life. Life changes and so should your goals as time moves on. Also, why are you having children if your only goal is to get rid of them? Yes, part of having children is hoping and preparing for them to eventually be independent adults, but that's hardly the only thing raising children is about.
myaccount9786 4y ago
I disagree that consuming media and participating online is not "interacting with the world". I spend a lot of my free time reading Wikipedia, watching YouTube, and playing games. This content comes from "the world". At my job I sit in front of a computer and interact with people via text and voice call. This is interacting with "the world". I don't understand why we fetishize in-person interaction as being "the world" and virtual interaction as "not the world". What about reading books? Would you criticize someone for reading too many books? Does that person not have a "point in living" in your opinion? In my opinion, this is a true Scotsman fallacy. And the bias is due to nostalgia.
- myaccount9786 4y ago
  That being said, I think there is a general bias in American culture towards "making something of yourself", which results in the act of participating in non-productive activities (ex: "mindless tv" such as gameshows, infomercials) as something which you need an excuse to do. For example: "I need to de-stress so I can be productive tomorrow". When you get old, this excuse is no longer possible. Which is why folks refer to vegetating like this as "sad". A hedonistic/utilitarian framework is a better model to look at these situations. Is that elderly individual enjoying themselves? Yes. Will their inaction today result in negative consequences (financial, health, etc.) later in life? No. In this framework, it's a perfectly good use of their time then. As a redneck, I love America. But I think this question posed by the OP is interesting because it shows the tradeoff everyone must make in American culture between exercising individual freedoms and increasing social credit/value/standing.

MouseTown 4y ago

You have the “right” as much as the next person but society is most benefited from those with experience helping those without. The argument that you deserve to watch TV all day because you once had a job is curious.

dylan604 4y ago
Then by your argument, there should be no young teachers as what the hell kind of experiences could they possibly have to teach?
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Teachers don’t teach experiential knowledge
  - dylan604 4y ago
    That is probably the saddest thing I have read all day. The best teachers I ever had were the ones that taught the subject material but from a relatable manner based on their years of experience. Yes, the best teachers I personally had were older.
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      Feels like you’re making emotional appeals to make the previous responder look out of touch in this post, and the previous, in opposite directions. The best teachers I ever had were kind, smart, and well funded.
      - dylan604 4y ago
        The first post was that old timers not sharing their experiences was bad which in my mind extrapolates to old timers should all be teachers. The second post was that acknowledging the fact that teachers no longer teach but instruct based on a preset curriculum arranged to get grades for specific tests higher. The fuzzy logic in my head might not be clear to me let alone others, but I feel you're trying to make something out of nothing as well.

thwayunion 4y ago

My MiL spends 10+ hours a day watching conspiracy theory videos on the internet (used to be YouTube, but now a lot of the channels are suspended so she uses alternative sites). It doesn't make her happy, it isn't good for her physical health, and it causes extreme social isolation. Anger and conspiracy completely dominate her personality. We can't go more than 10-20 minutes without some sort of serious accusation, which are often passive-aggressive and accusatory toward people in the room. She has directly accused me of multiple serious felonies and conspiracies, by virtue of the fact that I work in tech. She is no longer allowed to visit one of her daughters because my BiL (wife's sister's husband?) is not on speaking terms with her. She chooses not to visit another daughter. She floats around church social groups, who all sort of give her a few months and then punt her to the next group. To be clear: these aren't down to major political disagreements. Most of her family and friend group are all on the same page. Even her Q Anon neighbor won't speak with her anymore. It's bad. She has no friends and is slowly losing her family. When she visits us for holidays we have to warn friends not to engage with the fights she tries to pick. We train them on how to treat her as they would a child without being patronizing. It's hard. She is not happy, and I wish we could get her to spend less time watching videos on the internet.

Gordonjcp 4y ago
> She floats around church social groups, who all sort of give her a few months and then punt her to the next group. My teenager and her friends know someone like this who they described as "speedrunning friendships", and honestly that's the best description you're going to hear.
- thwayunion 4y ago
  It's even worse. She cycles through, as in multiple times with each group. The church knows her issues, so they cycle her through 3-4 small groups for a few months at a time so that she's included and taken care of but not overly burdensome on any particular group of people.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago

taurath 4y ago

> It's not hypocrisy. A child and a retiree are not even remotely comparable. One is accountable to their parents, the other has likely worked their ass off for decades to earn a bit of down time. Interesting that the perceived needs of people change over time based on how productive they are or were. This belies a sort of strangely managerial/administrative mindset as to the values that make a person "valid" to take time to pursue things they enjoy, and "earn" down time.

thenerdhead 4y ago

I like this perspective. It reads like the Ben Franklin quote: “Many young men die at age 25, but are not buried until they're 75.”

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

> will leave me the hell alone to do whatever I want to with the rest of my limited time here on earth. Many elders are left to wither away alone, and loneliness of older people is a rampant issue - they want to feel loved or at least feel relevant in the family and not forgotten.

kevinventullo 4y ago

Okay deal, we’ll leave you alone if you promise not to vote.

lmm 4y ago

Children are more stressed and have less free time than anyone else; it's not their fault that they're legally barred from doing anything "productive". They're not even allowed to vote on the laws that bind them!

parker_mountain 4y ago

> A child and a retiree are not even remotely comparable. Excessive consumption of low quality media is both bad for the brain and bad for society. > leave me the hell alone to do whatever I want to with the rest of my limited time here on earth If that means being manipulated by aggressive algorithms designed to keep you locked in and wasting your limited time, that's fine for you. Personally, I find it horrifying.

programmarchy 4y ago

Dude, hell no. This is an incredibly entitled outlook. You don't get to check out and look at your phone while your children or grandchildren want your attention. As an elder, you're expected to invest your time and wisdom into the next generation, not sit around on your ass doing nothing. Sure, maybe it's your right to squander your experience, but if it's also your choice then you deserve no respect. There's also the looming reality that as you continue to age, you'll be less capable of caring for yourself. Hopefully your children will take care of you, at least until they grow sick of you. And the caretakers in a nursing home certainly won't give a damn about your "productive achievements" when they're changing your diaper. You're right about one thing. A child and a retiree are not comparable. You should hold yourself to a much higher standard than a child.

rconti 4y ago

The blogpost was clearly written about parents who had no such high aspirations for their children, though.

bravetraveler 4y ago

This feels like a programmed response the article calls out Parents are accountable to the children, just as you say the children are to the parents. That's what relationships are. You're right in that generally it's none of my business how my father spends his days. However, decades of the outrage figure on TV have shown that aspects of how he spends his time are not only his concern. Had he listened to the majority of the family he'd still have those relationships Even now as an estranged adult, I'd appreciate his (non-deranged) input

lupire 4y ago
> You're right in that generally it's none of my business how my father spends his days. Why would you say that? Family relationships matter.
- bravetraveler 4y ago
  True, that's the thesis of my post! This is the struggle, respecting autonomy while still caring for someone Say I saw his health declining, I'd mention it - but I probably wouldn't expect much of it either, considering Edit: thinking on it, the effectiveness comes down to method Articles like this one are understandably inflammatory. Similarly, if I called my father something awful, I couldn't expect a good result. Asking how he feels does nothing We'd both be better off if I offered to cook him some meals, for example

itishappy 4y ago

> I'm not 65 yet, but once I am I hope that others will recognize my productive achievements and will leave me the hell alone to do whatever I want to with the rest of my limited time here on earth. 100% reasonable. If you're done contributing and want to sit the rest out you're welcome to in my book. But I suspect that most people keep at least 1 hand on the reigns in a critical way: they vote. If you're planning on influencing the lives of the following generations, I think it's pretty reasonable to be concerned about your mental well being.

rsj_hn 4y ago
Honestly I would much rather trust a voter who spends a lot of hours watching TV than someone who spends a lot of hours on social media.
- itishappy 4y ago
  I wouldn't. I suspect it's a lot easier to bump into differing viewpoints on social media than sitting in front of [insert channel here] for 8 hours a day. But I'm not at all confident in this, and I think that's the point. I think they're both likely to fuck you up, so I think it's reasonable to be concerned about both.
  - JediLuke 4y ago
myaccount9786 4y ago
This seems like a reasonable argument until you go deeper. > most people keep at least 1 hand on the reins in a critical way: they vote > it's reasonable to be concerned about [old people's] mental well being. So you're saying old people shouldn't be allowed to vote... because they're mentally incapable? I remember one time in American history when certain folks decided certain other folks were mentally incapable of voting... (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test)

quitit 4y ago

Controversially I think the problem with taking this point of view is that it's also an argument for why seniors shouldn't be allowed to vote. However, I think old people should be allowed to vote. So really what we should be looking at is something more nuanced - that perhaps excessive screen time is wasteful, maybe even exploitative, even for seniors. There is certainly an unevenness to the moral panic of children with screen time - but moderation is key, not blanket statements.

underwater 4y ago

To take a contrarian view: Raising kids is not curing cancer, having a fruitful career isn't solving world hunger. Many people get to retirement age having worked hard for their own benefit, nothing more. How does that earn them the right to contribute nothing productive back to society for the rest of their years?