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Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees
- revskill 4y agoYoutube video is bad, there's no video to see how things are really done.
- socialismisok 4y agoSimilar to coppicing! Or maybe a regional specialization of coppicing? Trees are incredibly resilient organisms, and producing products like this from them is such a great lost art.
- andrewflnr 4y ago> A similar technique is also used in other parts of the world, such as the UK, but under the name Coppice and Pollarding. While the technique is similar, it's not exactly the same, as daisugi only works with seedlings from a specific mutant cedar in a specific location in Kyoto. Dang, that's a shame.
- asplake 4y agoIt’s the champagne of pollarding
- EdwardDiego 4y agoUnless your pollarded lumber came from a mutant cedar in a specific location in Kyoto, it's just sparkling timber.
- highwaylights 4y agoI want this t-shirt.
- rob74 4y agoThat phrase got me confused: there are several other "species" of cultivated plants that are actually clones of a single mutant plant, most famously the Cavendish banana. But "seedlings" suggests that this mutant cedar can pass on the mutation when reproduced from seeds, not only through cloning? Actually, I suspect that the main reason why this is not doable at scale is the amount of manual labor involved - cutting off the offshoots without damaging the tree below sounds like quite a challenge...
- _tom_ 4y agoWithout cutting DOWN trees. I was trying to guess how they could grow square trees.
- agumonkey 4y agoI'm sure people "molded" tree into squarer outer shape in the past.
- Jorengarenar 4y ago>This is an ancient method, developed in the 14th century Isn't it interesting, how most of the history of East Asia just has label "ancient" slapped onto it in pop-culture?
- esperent 4y agoIn western pop culture you mean. I'm sure Japanese people have similar ways of referring to Western history.
- CuriousCosmic 4y agoJapan went through a significant cultural upheaval during the Meiji restoration. So much of Japanese culture comes from the Meiji era up into the start of the Taisho era and as a result a lot of people treat everything prior to the Meiji restoration as "ancient times". Hell unlike most western culture, Japan didn't really get their current system for naming individuals and families until the 1870s. But as to why all these practices in Japan that date past the Meiji era are considered "ancient", one of the major parts of the restoration was the systematic centralisation of Japanese society and standardisation of practices. This resulted in a lot of practices being more or less outlawed with the surviving practices that weren't officially sanctioned by the central government surviving solely due to rebellious/non-compliant individuals secretly preserving their practices throughout the Meiji era. Into the late Taisho and early Showa era, the threats of violence from the central government were removed and the stigma around these "outlawed" practices faded, allowing families to publicly practice their "non-standardised" crafts. This is more or less the reason behind the seemingly endless quantity of "ancient crafts" and "secrets passed down through generations". There was a systematic attempt at eliminating non-conformant practices for a good ~40-60 years. That's at least a few generations who grew up fearing retribution for practicing their family traditions. There's also a whole orientalisation/fetishisation of Japanese things and concepts. The same applies to the broader east asian and greater asian cultures.
- lofatdairy 4y ago> Hell unlike most western culture, Japan didn't really get their current system for naming individuals and families until the 1870s. Interestingly enough I think the Scandinavian countries moved from a patronymic system around the same time. My hunch is that this is due to globalization of the era and increased international/interimperial interactions.
- Obsnold 4y agoDoes the Japanese government pay for or in some way support articles like this? Do people in Japan get articles about how amazing coppicing is in the UK? Articles like this about Japan make me feel a bit weird but I kind of wish we were better at fetishising our own produce and practices like we do with the Japanese.
- icelancer 4y agoOh, indeed - and sometimes worse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome
- dimator 4y ago> is a sense of extreme disappointment exhibited by some individuals when visiting Paris, who feel that the city was not what they had expected > The syndrome is characterized by a number of psychiatric symptoms such as acute delusional states, hallucinations, feelings of persecution ... derealization, depersonalization, anxiety, and also psychosomatic manifestations such as dizziness, tachycardia, sweating, and others, such as vomiting uhhh, what?? just from being disappointed in a place you're visiting? I had to double check the link to make sure it wasn't some satirical site.
- enneff 4y agoI think it’s just extreme culture shock. Some Japanese people, and likely the kind to follow a romanticised dream of visiting Paris, are very sheltered. If your first experience of a country other than Japan (a very ordered place with powerful social norms) is the actual Paris (where the environment is comparably a lot more chaotic and people are not exactly friendly) then I can see how you might lose your mind a bit with shock.
- Danieru 4y agoWhat you need to understand is how Paris is horrible in the exact ways Japanese cities are nice. Paris is dirt, aggressive, expensive, with horrible customer service. All things Japanese city has and would never think to include in a tourism pitch. Japanese Tourists expect Paris to be a Regular (Japanese) City + Romanticism. What they get has no romance, and a city even regular French people consider rude.
- esperent 4y agoHow much timber can be made this way (including similar methods like coppicing)? Is it enough to contribute a noticeable amount to the modern timber industry? Or is it more of a "huh that's cool" conversation topic?
- RugnirViking 4y agoits more useful for specific kinds of timber. If you want giant planks for building houses with, not that useful. We coppiced wood so it would grow a convenient size for chopping into firewood. Another large benefit is they tend to grow faily tall and straight, so are useful for things like stakes for fence posts.
- bstpierre 4y agoMy somewhat limited understanding is that coppicing or especially pollarding requires significantly more labor input. Modern timber harvesting is very highly industrialized. I have never seen any kind of machinery or industrial processes for managing a forest for coppice. I suspect that another factor may be density of a managed woodlot, but again I am not in the industry, just an owner of a small bit of “forest”, so my perception may be off.
- lm28469 4y ago> Is it enough to contribute a noticeable amount to the modern timber industry? This is the same question with renewable energies. The answer is that maybe, just maybe, the "modern X industry" is unsustainable and we should strive to be more frugal/efficient
- Scaevolus 4y agoSee also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing
- nindalf 4y agoDupe https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33715565 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33715565
- dang 4y agoThat one was later so we merged it hither.
- duped 4y agoI wish there was a way to apply this technique to some of the rarer woods that have fantastic uses in production, like teak, rosewood, and grenadilla. If you're into hardwoods like musical instruments or fine furniture there's an appreciation you grow for the character of these woods. And a moral quandary with the sourcing of it. It seems impossible to find a sustainable method to source the material. A lot of what we make today will seem impossible in the coming decades. Grenadilla trees in particular are suffering due to over harvesting and poor oversight in the markets where it is sourced. It is prized for woodwind instruments - and the day is coming where it's only going to be economical to use recycled polymer composites (which have many benefits besides commercial) over true solid wood instruments. If we could sustainably turn these trees into fruit trees harvested over centuries it would be a great service to nature and the industry.
- rob74 4y agoThis technique doesn't really offer a solution: as a rule, the harder and better quality the wood, the slower it grows, so the possibility to supply more when demand is high is limited, which makes the wood more expensive, so the temptation of "poaching" it is greater.
- vanderZwan 4y agoThe cedar shoots in this article are claimed to be stronger and to grow quicker though
- jimnotgym 4y agoThey probably mean 'stronger' in the sense of a beam, and stronger in the sense of stronger than the cedar that is not grown like that. This is probably due to the straight grain and lack of knots. That is not the property people need everywhere timber is used. Perhaps the finger board of a violin needs to be hard. The wooden bed of a scaffolding (and they are still wood in the uk) lorry needs to be tough and durable. An electric guitar body needs a certain density. Coppice poles are not good for any of these things.
- forgotusername6 4y agoWhen I first drove past freshly coppiced woodland near me I was shocked. What had they done? They'd butchered the forest. All the trees reduced to less than a foot off the ground. They all grow back though and it doesn't take too long for the woods to return to what they looked like before.
- ggm 4y agoCoppicing, Hedge laying, Bocage, drystone walling, wattle-and-daub are all domestic comparable ancient crafts of Europe. The point being that probably only drystone walling is valued in a way comparable to the Japanese version of Coppicing, which really has been transformed into an artform. European coppices are cut close to the rootstock and cut down far younger for use as poles, for wood turning, for hedge laying. Timber framed construction in Europe was nailless (wooden tree nails permitted) but the mortice and tenon joinery of Japan is in another league. Maybe European Gothic cathedral roofs come close, little else would. Japan modernised in the modern era, it's industrial revolution was comparatively recent and it remained feudal far longer than Europe (Russian serfdom aside) There are probably more continuous family heritage firms in Japan practising some art (brewing, soy sauce, woodwork, coppicing) than anywhere else. Can you name a European family concern doing the same thing continuously since before 1600? I can't name any Japanese ones but I wouldn't be surprised if there were many. Institutional enterprises like Oxford university press exist since deep time, but in Japan it would be a continuous lineage of printers continuing to use woodblock printing (maybe alongside hot type or photo typesetting) Farming does remain in the family but European farming practices have modernised since forever.
- duped 4y agoThanks for the googling for rabbit holes. The joinery in traditional Japanese construction is remarkably impressive in its craftsmanship. I've heard it was born from a combination of expensive and poor quality iron for nails (although the same could be said in European construction - hence the phrase, "dead as a door nail") and the desire to be able to relocate Shinto shrines without damage (which required joints that could sustain serious loads without nails or glue). The ingenuity of design, and craftsmanship in their manufacture is something to behold. You can stare at a joint, chiseled by someone hundreds of years ago from fine hardwood and appreciate the care and expertise put into it. I wonder sometimes what we build that people look back on and will see the same quality of work.
- Danieru 4y agoMore important: earthquakes. Large ancient style Nails are a poor choice for a building which over the next 50 years is will experience a 100+ earthquakes. Joined wood is a mechanical connection which would require a house to be disassembled from the top down. The wood would sooner rip than come loose. Edit: also joinery is not dead. Even modern Japanese houses have most of their connections a joinery. Then reinforced up with nails, cross braces (wood and now metal), and metal pins. Every dozen or so years Japan adds a new method for further earthquake proofing wooden homes. Stuff built now is expected to survive a Shindo 7 earthquake. Japan has only had 8 Shindo 7s in the past 100 years.
- xg15 4y ago> The other reason the technique was developed was fashion. In the 14th century, a linear, stylized form of architecture known as sukiya-zukuri was extremely popular I'm also fascinated by how Japan apparently had it's own Bauhaus period, some 600 years before the west did.
- defrost 4y agoIt resurfaced again in 1998 [1] [1] https://www.discogs.com/release/1251099-Various-Satori-A-Tribute-To-Bauhaus https://www.discogs.com/release/1251099-Various-Satori-A-Tri...
- xg15 4y agoOh, that's cool! I also found this bit [1]. So there really seems to be a connection between Sukiya-zukuri and Bauhaus: > In 1954 Walter Gropius, founder of the Bauhaus visited Katsura Detached Palace and was so struck by it that in 1960 he co-authored Katsura: Tradition and Creation Japanese Architecture with Kenzo Tange. (Though the book quote in the article seems to be about Zen gardens, which reads to me as maximally un-Bauhaus-like, so not sure if the style really was a direct inspiration for Bauhaus.) [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukiya-zukuri#Influence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukiya-zukuri#Influence
- xg15 4y ago...ok, knowing historical dates is advantageous :) The art school existed from 1919-1933. So if he went to Japan in 1954, obviously it couldn't have been an influence. Fun coincidence nevertheless.
- helsinkiandrew 4y ago> This is an ancient method, developed in the 14th century 14th century ancient? bah humbug! There's evidence of coppicing in the UK from about 6500 years ago. > The practice of coppicing can be traced back to Neolithic times (4500 BC). Neolithic wattle trackways in the Somerset Levels are evidence of sophisticated coppicing systems which produced rods of exactly the same size. Archaeological evidence shows that coppice products were used for numerous rural needs throughout the Bronze, Roman and Saxon periods https://www.conservationhandbooks.com/woodlands/a-brief-history-of-woodlands-in-britain/coppicing/ https://www.conservationhandbooks.com/woodlands/a-brief-hist...
- dr_dshiv 4y ago> daisugi only works with seedlings from a specific mutant cedar in a specific location in Kyoto Need more mutations!!
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- qikInNdOutReply 4y agoThe ancient japanese governments restricted the peasants from destroying the allmende. No hunting with weapons, only traps. No chopping down trees. Its the only way a society on a island with limitations can thrive. This is a hack to circumvent the no lumbering rule. As far as im aware, similar rules never were applied in europe, just all things chopped down, and then some state forrests and macchia.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- tpm 4y agoCertainly no hunting with weapons (no anything with weapons really) did apply in feudal Europe; the nobles were allowed to carry and use a weapon while the peasants were not. As for the trees, that was managed by the feudal owner of the land. Usually some forests were cut down early (between ca. 500-1300 AD) where arable land was under them, the rest was managed and used for construction and heating/cooking. Later many forests were completely cleared at the beginning of the industrial revolution to manufacture charcoal, used in many industrial processes. Some of them are now regrown.
- qikInNdOutReply 4y agoThats medieval northern europe, aka france, germany, england. The rest, the forrest was basically used up permanently during roman times. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macchie https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macchie
- tpm 4y agoAlso Ireland, Czechia, Poland, Slovakia, parts of Hungary, Romania, Ukraine at least that I know of. But you are right, I thought of the Roman times immediately after finishing my comment.
- actionfromafar 4y agoOak forrests were very controlled in many European countries, for national security reasons. (Needed to make war ships.)
- vanderZwan 4y agoEveryone here is mentioning coppicing, so I suspect there will be some interest in the Low Tech Magazine articles on the subject: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/coppicing/ https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/coppicing/ And since we're talking about doing cool things with trees, I just wanted to mention that LTM has more interesting articles slightly "adjacent" to this topic, like this one about a half-forgotten technique for growing citrus trees in climates with freezing temperatures: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/04/fruit-trenches-cultivating-subtropical-plants-in-freezing-temperatures.html https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/04/fruit-trenches-culti...
- smcl 4y agoI really need to check that site out more often. Every time I see a link it's great - that second link you posted about the Soviet Union's techniques for growing citrus fruits well north of where they're normally grown is cool.
- kriro 4y agoWow thanks a lot. I wasn't aware of this website. That's a place to spend hundreds of hours :) They even have printed books covering all their articles...those will make excellent x-mas gifts for some friends of mine.
- inkcapmushroom 4y agoFWIW you can replace the "www" in your links with "solar" to access LTM's solar-powered version of their website. It's off-grid and solar panel powered, so not available 365 days of the year, but I've yet to find it offline when I check. I think it's a neat project. :)
- laputan_machine 4y agoIt's a very cool project, and I really like the aesthetic of beige-ish background and reduced-bit, dithered images, almost feels like an old school magazine
- rossmohax 4y agoI always thought that trees spend energy to grow higher, because they are fighting for the sun. Looking at the picture there seem to be enough sun for each sprout,why does it keep growing?
- ekianjo 4y agoClickbait title. Japanese do cut trees. This technique is just used in very minor situations.
- adipginting 4y agoRelated https://us.eia.org/blog/japan-a-major-market-for-high-risk-timber/ https://us.eia.org/blog/japan-a-major-market-for-high-risk-t... . It seems like this ancient practice can not fulfil Japan's timber demand.
- mek6800d2 4y agoYes. The linked post says Japan is the 4th largest importer of wood. My geography professor in 1981 told us about it being cheaper to send raw wood logged in the Pacific Northwest to Japan for finishing than it was to ship it across the country. And, in Collapse I think, Jared Diamond talks about Japan "exporting" its deforestation to less-developed countries. Other countries do this too (and for other natural resources too), of course, but any of the "sustainability" of these old practices is greatly outweighed by the damage done by mass logging in the less-developed countries.
- henearkr 4y agoThis could be wrongly understood as "Japan wood industry doesn't cut down trees", which is false. Japanese forests are currently suffering an intense demand and are overexploited. A large part of the cuts are undeclared or under-declared, and clear cuts are not rare. Undeclared overexploitation of mountain top forests has been one of the determined causes of some catastrophic landslides a couple of years ago. @dang would it be possible to update the title in order to convey the meaning that it is one fabulous technique used in Japan, without letting believe that it is the technique used in Japan?
- peteradio 4y ago> Here and there in the forests around Kyoto you will find abandoned giant daisugi (they only produce lumber for 200-300 years before being worn out), still alive, some with trunk diameters of over 15 meters. 15 meters?? Seriously??
- PaulHoule 4y agoBeavers in the wet meadow by my driveway coppice willows to produce large amounts of material on a sustainable basis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing I've not only seen the results but I've actually pulled the wood out of their dams by hand when I disassemble them to prevent them from flooding my driveway. It's not that hard to do so long as you keep the water level low. Once the water level gets high they get a lot more productive because they can easily float large amounts of wood.
- tomrod 4y agoAlways love reading about sustainability practices. Sidenote/tangent: why put a chat modal on a blog? I don't get it. It takes up valuable mobile real estate and I'm sure the desktop UX is not improved.
- m3kw9 4y agoI can produce wood too without cutting down trees
- jasonmarks_ 4y agoI couldn't help but think about how this is similar to the type of pruning/bending you apply in conjunction with trellis netting when growing cannabis if you want to maximize your top colas in a confined space.
- amai 4y agoSee also this video and information from a german TV show: https://www.galileo.tv/natur/daisuigi-wie-in-japan-holz-gewonnen-wird-ohne-baeume-zu-faellen/ https://www.galileo.tv/natur/daisuigi-wie-in-japan-holz-gewo...