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I've said this in most threads on this topic but will keep repeating it: EA functionally matches the exact same patterns I grew up around among evangelical extr

I've said this in most threads on this topic but will keep repeating it: EA functionally matches the exact same patterns I grew up around among evangelical extremists. It's an all purpose justification of moral righteousness, performed with false humility.

zozbot234 4y ago
EA is about applying well-established social science to the problem of getting the most bang for the buck in charity. There's nothing else to it, and it's not "extremist" unless you hold that charity itself is extremist.
- tptacek 4y ago
  That's sort of begging the argument proposed upthread. This is the standard line about EA, but it has clearly led some people --- people important to the movement, to "institutional" EA --- to some weird, dark places. And those dark ideas are in a sense dicta to parts of the wider EA community.
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    "EA" didn't do this. The EA-pursuing community in particular places may well be deeply flawed in all sorts of ways, but this has no bearing on the validity of EA principles more broadly.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      Then, if it helps you, just mentally substitute "EA-pursuing community" for "EA" in these discussions.
      - onos 4y ago
        I would accept the theme if you used “many of those claiming to follow EA”. But you don’t, you say “EA”. It’s on you to make your statements accurate.
        tptacek 4y ago
        You can't have a curious conversation when you've committed yourself to not understanding the points other people are making.
    - humanistbot 4y ago
      And Jesus Christ didn't personally cause a lot of wars, the Jesus Christ fanclubs did that....
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
    Yes, exactly. I have a purely secular worldview as an adult, but there are good things worth paying attention to in the bible, at least in the new testament. What's different about the evangelical extremists I grew up around is this complex of mutually buttressing beliefs/behaviors like biblical literalism, believing in direct communication of absolute truth from the holy spirit, that prayer can cause supernatural miracles, etc. With EA I'd cite longtermerism, the rhetoric around coin flips and risk, and in particular how all of this becomes a normative standard: if you aren't maximizing your earning potential you are a moral failure! As I said, many of these beliefs and behaviors functionally serve to give the believer an all purpose source of moral righteousness. No one has a problem with Jesus saying you should not just do no harm but have a burden to help those in need. The problem comes exactly in that institutionalization that adopts this as a banner while behaving in the complete opposite way in practice.
- polygamous_bat 4y ago
  And some may claim Christianity is about loving your neighbor and following the love of Jesus all the way heaven... Yet you will see people camped outside planned parenthoods screaming and cursing at other humans who are 100% Christians by their own definition. Seems like you're falling for the exact fallacy I pointed out upthread.
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    > Yet you will see people camped outside planned parenthoods screaming and cursing These people think Planned Parenthood is literally murdering babies. You're free to politely disagree with that characterization of course, but it only takes a tiny bit of empathy to understand what the screaming and cursing is all about.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
      - zozbot234 4y ago
        > If it were about saving babies there's 100's of simple real world things these anti abortion extremists could support to impact the number of abortions. They oppose nearly all of them. Well, there's a new EA intervention area: Saving Prenatal Human Lives.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    So far as I can see, the important difference between EA and Christianity, is that all the EA types are looking at everything EA is doing wrong and asking themselves how to make it less wrong. Perhaps early Christianity was like that too, before it became mandatory, but it’s certainly not what I remember from my Catholic childhood.
    - polygamous_bat 4y ago
      > the important difference between EA and Christianity, is that all the EA types are looking at everything EA is doing wrong and asking themselves how to make it less wrong. Are they? Because I am meeting a lot of (admittedly self proclaimed) EAs that are busy evangelizing about what "True EA" is and is not, and how SBF was never "True EA". Maybe they are contemplating a lot in their free time, but on a broad stroke it looks like attempting to avoid responsibility to me.
- cwillu 4y ago
  This is why I really dislike identifying with the name of a movement or idea or whatever. It doesn't matter how much the term was just a convenient label for a bunch of ideas, labels gain lives of their own and what they Really Mean™ becomes uncontrollable and inconsistent and eventually incoherent.
haberman 4y ago
A key part of religious extremism is trying to impose one's own morality on others. Where are the effective altruists trying to control the actions of others in the name of EA?
- polygamous_bat 4y ago
  Another key part of religious extremism is offering indemnity for henious acts, like crusades or honor killings. I have definitely seen high priests of "radical EA" acting similarly.

zozbot234 4y ago

EA is about applying well-established social science to the problem of getting the most bang for the buck in charity. There's nothing else to it, and it's not "extremist" unless you hold that charity itself is extremist.

tptacek 4y ago
That's sort of begging the argument proposed upthread. This is the standard line about EA, but it has clearly led some people --- people important to the movement, to "institutional" EA --- to some weird, dark places. And those dark ideas are in a sense dicta to parts of the wider EA community.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  "EA" didn't do this. The EA-pursuing community in particular places may well be deeply flawed in all sorts of ways, but this has no bearing on the validity of EA principles more broadly.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Then, if it helps you, just mentally substitute "EA-pursuing community" for "EA" in these discussions.
    - onos 4y ago
      I would accept the theme if you used “many of those claiming to follow EA”. But you don’t, you say “EA”. It’s on you to make your statements accurate.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        You can't have a curious conversation when you've committed yourself to not understanding the points other people are making.
  - humanistbot 4y ago
    And Jesus Christ didn't personally cause a lot of wars, the Jesus Christ fanclubs did that....
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
  Yes, exactly. I have a purely secular worldview as an adult, but there are good things worth paying attention to in the bible, at least in the new testament. What's different about the evangelical extremists I grew up around is this complex of mutually buttressing beliefs/behaviors like biblical literalism, believing in direct communication of absolute truth from the holy spirit, that prayer can cause supernatural miracles, etc. With EA I'd cite longtermerism, the rhetoric around coin flips and risk, and in particular how all of this becomes a normative standard: if you aren't maximizing your earning potential you are a moral failure! As I said, many of these beliefs and behaviors functionally serve to give the believer an all purpose source of moral righteousness. No one has a problem with Jesus saying you should not just do no harm but have a burden to help those in need. The problem comes exactly in that institutionalization that adopts this as a banner while behaving in the complete opposite way in practice.
polygamous_bat 4y ago
And some may claim Christianity is about loving your neighbor and following the love of Jesus all the way heaven... Yet you will see people camped outside planned parenthoods screaming and cursing at other humans who are 100% Christians by their own definition. Seems like you're falling for the exact fallacy I pointed out upthread.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  > Yet you will see people camped outside planned parenthoods screaming and cursing These people think Planned Parenthood is literally murdering babies. You're free to politely disagree with that characterization of course, but it only takes a tiny bit of empathy to understand what the screaming and cursing is all about.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
    - zozbot234 4y ago
      > If it were about saving babies there's 100's of simple real world things these anti abortion extremists could support to impact the number of abortions. They oppose nearly all of them. Well, there's a new EA intervention area: Saving Prenatal Human Lives.
- ben_w 4y ago
  So far as I can see, the important difference between EA and Christianity, is that all the EA types are looking at everything EA is doing wrong and asking themselves how to make it less wrong. Perhaps early Christianity was like that too, before it became mandatory, but it’s certainly not what I remember from my Catholic childhood.
  - polygamous_bat 4y ago
    > the important difference between EA and Christianity, is that all the EA types are looking at everything EA is doing wrong and asking themselves how to make it less wrong. Are they? Because I am meeting a lot of (admittedly self proclaimed) EAs that are busy evangelizing about what "True EA" is and is not, and how SBF was never "True EA". Maybe they are contemplating a lot in their free time, but on a broad stroke it looks like attempting to avoid responsibility to me.
cwillu 4y ago
This is why I really dislike identifying with the name of a movement or idea or whatever. It doesn't matter how much the term was just a convenient label for a bunch of ideas, labels gain lives of their own and what they Really Mean™ becomes uncontrollable and inconsistent and eventually incoherent.

haberman 4y ago

A key part of religious extremism is trying to impose one's own morality on others. Where are the effective altruists trying to control the actions of others in the name of EA?

polygamous_bat 4y ago
Another key part of religious extremism is offering indemnity for henious acts, like crusades or honor killings. I have definitely seen high priests of "radical EA" acting similarly.