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From your tone, were you caught up in this? If so my condolences. I, like many people, don't do crypto as I don't believe in the fundamental economics (no valu

From your tone, were you caught up in this? If so my condolences. I, like many people, don't do crypto as I don't believe in the fundamental economics (no value creation). So we kind of want to see it fail as we would want a MLM business to fail. But that's really not the same as having been burned. That really really sucks

spaceman0997 4y ago
FTX failing is not crypto failing. FTX failing just proves the fundament of crypto to be right - don't use centralized finance (yes, FTX is centralized finance).
- moomin 4y ago
  Yes, but the vast majority of crypto is centralised, so the moral is don’t use crypto.
  - spaceman0997 4y ago
    It's perfectly possible to use crypto without centralized exchanges and many people do so. As "centralized crypto" continues to fail, people will use it in a decentralized way more and more. I don't see how the conclusion is "don't use crypto". People seeked simplicity, found out there is no free lunch - that doesn't mean they will throw the baby out with the bathwater.
    - tpxl 4y ago
      How do you enter or exit crypto? Either through a centralized exchange or you buy/sell from/to a shady dude in the alley.
      - landemva 4y ago
        This is the same as entering or exiting the gold coin market. Buy it or earn it or mine it.
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  (yes, FTX is centralized finance). All finance is centralized. De-centralized finance really doesn't exist --- crypto is just the latest example of this. Before any crypto transaction who do the buyer and seller both turn to for a "fair market value" ? A *centralized* exchange. The crypto market is controlled by companies like FTX. This still holds true even if you don't deal directly with these companies. Money equates to influence and control and crypto is no exception.
  - spaceman0997 4y ago
    What central authority controls Bitcoin? > Before any crypto transaction who do the buyer and seller both turn to for a "fair market value" ? A centralized exchange. That's the simplest way today - but definitely not a requirement, and doesn't make it centralized in any way. The centralized exchanges don't set the price (if anything, they suggest it) and they can't control transactions nor wallets. Who doesn't know the private key can't do anything with the funds on a wallet. > The crypto market is controlled by companies like FTX. This still holds true even if you deal directly with these companies. The "crypto market" - maybe. But they don't control the cryptocurrencies themselves in any way. This is like saying that because NASDAQ controls the $MSFT market they control Microsoft - of course they don't.
    - jqpabc123 4y ago
      But they don't control the cryptocurrencies themselves in any way. Binance and Bitfinex have control over the one thing that matters most about Bitcoin --- the price. They exercise this control in the same way a central bank does --- they have access to an unlimited supply of "stablecoins" they can mint at will and use to buy/sell bitcoin as they see fit.
      - spaceman0997 4y ago
        The price isn't the thing that matters the most about Bitcoin... What matters the most is that nobody can take my coins from my wallet if I don't want them to and that I can send the coins to anybody I want, however much I want and whenever I want.
cguess 4y ago
I didn't lose anything in FTX (nor do I have any crypto invested beyond some BTC change from a long time ago) and I agree with OP 100% (except the "life, or worse," I'm firmly against the death penalty but totally fine with letting him sit in a cell in Terre Haute for the rest of his life).
- sleepymoose 4y ago
  > (except the "life, or worse," I'm firmly against the death penalty but totally fine with letting him sit in a cell in Terre Haute for the rest of his life). Can I ask why you think this is better? I just did some quick math, and based on the average yearly cost of incarceration for an Adult Male in Indiana at $19,202[1], assuming SBF lives for another 50 years, that's $960,250 of tax payer dollars being used to store someonne that contributes nothing to society. So after he's stolen billions of dollars, we'll spend another million keeping him alive for absolutely no reason whatsoever. It doesn't make sense to me economically or socially. It doesn't even make sense to me as an individual, as I'd much rather just bite the bullet than spend the next few decades looking at concrete walls. [1] https://faqs.in.gov/hc/en-us/articles/115005238288-How-much-does-it-cost-to-keep-an-offender-in-prison- https://faqs.in.gov/hc/en-us/articles/115005238288-How-much-...
  - mrep 4y ago
    Somewhat surprisingly, it is actually cheaper to just throw them in prison for the rest of their life then use the death penalty. Like 50% more to a whopping 1000% for California [0]. [0]: https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/death-penalty/death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost/ https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/death-penalty/death-penalt...
  - StrictDabbler 4y ago
    It takes millions of dollars to go through the legal process necessary to execute somebody with any confidence in the judgment. It is vastly more expensive than life imprisonment. It also costs a lot to go through that process and determine that execution is not justified, at which point we're still on the hook for imprisonment. Putting somebody in jail for life is a bargain in comparison. [1] https://www.leg.state.nv.us/App/NELIS/REL/76th2011/ExhibitDocument/OpenExhibitDocument?exhibitId=17686&fileDownloadName=h041211ab501_pescetta.pdf https://www.leg.state.nv.us/App/NELIS/REL/76th2011/ExhibitDo...
kybernetyk 4y ago
>So we kind of want to see it fail as we would want a MLM business to fail. Do "we" really? I like you don't see any value creation when it comes to coins, NFTs and what else is out there. But the idea of a crypto _currency_ is great. I just want the speculation to end and for people to use it as it was intended: As an alternative to government provided funny money.
ipython 4y ago
I’m not involved - and own no crypto - but just as angry as the gp. Why? I’m tired of these cryptobro idiots being held up on some sort of bullshit pedestal while people who truly get shit done have zero recognition and toil away in obscurity. It’s sickening - and 1000x more when that person is not just an idiot, but a malicious one to boot. Throw the book at them. I enjoyed tbray’s blog post yesterday - one sentence in particular which I’ve oft repeated with crypto enthusiasts. Civilization is built on trust. You can’t “code” that away.
john_alan 4y ago
> (no value creation) Do you know how Seigniorage works?

spaceman0997 4y ago

FTX failing is not crypto failing. FTX failing just proves the fundament of crypto to be right - don't use centralized finance (yes, FTX is centralized finance).

moomin 4y ago
Yes, but the vast majority of crypto is centralised, so the moral is don’t use crypto.
- spaceman0997 4y ago
  It's perfectly possible to use crypto without centralized exchanges and many people do so. As "centralized crypto" continues to fail, people will use it in a decentralized way more and more. I don't see how the conclusion is "don't use crypto". People seeked simplicity, found out there is no free lunch - that doesn't mean they will throw the baby out with the bathwater.
  - tpxl 4y ago
    How do you enter or exit crypto? Either through a centralized exchange or you buy/sell from/to a shady dude in the alley.
    - landemva 4y ago
      This is the same as entering or exiting the gold coin market. Buy it or earn it or mine it.
jqpabc123 4y ago
(yes, FTX is centralized finance). All finance is centralized. De-centralized finance really doesn't exist --- crypto is just the latest example of this. Before any crypto transaction who do the buyer and seller both turn to for a "fair market value" ? A *centralized* exchange. The crypto market is controlled by companies like FTX. This still holds true even if you don't deal directly with these companies. Money equates to influence and control and crypto is no exception.
- spaceman0997 4y ago
  What central authority controls Bitcoin? > Before any crypto transaction who do the buyer and seller both turn to for a "fair market value" ? A centralized exchange. That's the simplest way today - but definitely not a requirement, and doesn't make it centralized in any way. The centralized exchanges don't set the price (if anything, they suggest it) and they can't control transactions nor wallets. Who doesn't know the private key can't do anything with the funds on a wallet. > The crypto market is controlled by companies like FTX. This still holds true even if you deal directly with these companies. The "crypto market" - maybe. But they don't control the cryptocurrencies themselves in any way. This is like saying that because NASDAQ controls the $MSFT market they control Microsoft - of course they don't.
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    But they don't control the cryptocurrencies themselves in any way. Binance and Bitfinex have control over the one thing that matters most about Bitcoin --- the price. They exercise this control in the same way a central bank does --- they have access to an unlimited supply of "stablecoins" they can mint at will and use to buy/sell bitcoin as they see fit.
    - spaceman0997 4y ago
      The price isn't the thing that matters the most about Bitcoin... What matters the most is that nobody can take my coins from my wallet if I don't want them to and that I can send the coins to anybody I want, however much I want and whenever I want.

cguess 4y ago

I didn't lose anything in FTX (nor do I have any crypto invested beyond some BTC change from a long time ago) and I agree with OP 100% (except the "life, or worse," I'm firmly against the death penalty but totally fine with letting him sit in a cell in Terre Haute for the rest of his life).

sleepymoose 4y ago
> (except the "life, or worse," I'm firmly against the death penalty but totally fine with letting him sit in a cell in Terre Haute for the rest of his life). Can I ask why you think this is better? I just did some quick math, and based on the average yearly cost of incarceration for an Adult Male in Indiana at $19,202[1], assuming SBF lives for another 50 years, that's $960,250 of tax payer dollars being used to store someonne that contributes nothing to society. So after he's stolen billions of dollars, we'll spend another million keeping him alive for absolutely no reason whatsoever. It doesn't make sense to me economically or socially. It doesn't even make sense to me as an individual, as I'd much rather just bite the bullet than spend the next few decades looking at concrete walls. [1] https://faqs.in.gov/hc/en-us/articles/115005238288-How-much-does-it-cost-to-keep-an-offender-in-prison- https://faqs.in.gov/hc/en-us/articles/115005238288-How-much-...
- mrep 4y ago
  Somewhat surprisingly, it is actually cheaper to just throw them in prison for the rest of their life then use the death penalty. Like 50% more to a whopping 1000% for California [0]. [0]: https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/death-penalty/death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost/ https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/death-penalty/death-penalt...
- StrictDabbler 4y ago
  It takes millions of dollars to go through the legal process necessary to execute somebody with any confidence in the judgment. It is vastly more expensive than life imprisonment. It also costs a lot to go through that process and determine that execution is not justified, at which point we're still on the hook for imprisonment. Putting somebody in jail for life is a bargain in comparison. [1] https://www.leg.state.nv.us/App/NELIS/REL/76th2011/ExhibitDocument/OpenExhibitDocument?exhibitId=17686&fileDownloadName=h041211ab501_pescetta.pdf https://www.leg.state.nv.us/App/NELIS/REL/76th2011/ExhibitDo...

kybernetyk 4y ago

>So we kind of want to see it fail as we would want a MLM business to fail. Do "we" really? I like you don't see any value creation when it comes to coins, NFTs and what else is out there. But the idea of a crypto _currency_ is great. I just want the speculation to end and for people to use it as it was intended: As an alternative to government provided funny money.

ipython 4y ago

I’m not involved - and own no crypto - but just as angry as the gp. Why? I’m tired of these cryptobro idiots being held up on some sort of bullshit pedestal while people who truly get shit done have zero recognition and toil away in obscurity. It’s sickening - and 1000x more when that person is not just an idiot, but a malicious one to boot. Throw the book at them. I enjoyed tbray’s blog post yesterday - one sentence in particular which I’ve oft repeated with crypto enthusiasts. Civilization is built on trust. You can’t “code” that away.

john_alan 4y ago

> (no value creation) Do you know how Seigniorage works?