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This is about a request used to report a click in the app store, which is technically specified in the privacy policy [1] and you can get a CSV of it from Appl

by _23sd 4y ago

This is about a request used to report a click in the app store, which is technically specified in the privacy policy [1] and you can get a CSV of it from Apple in data requests. This is the subject of a class action filed earlier this month [2]. While I think Apple's data collection within its apps is excessive, the only thing the researchers achieve by conflating it with device analytics is giving tech media an "Apple Lies!" headline cycle. People should be informed about how these analytics/surveillance systems work and how to effectively navigate and counter them, not be sold paranoia and the idea that the settings are always lying. They're misleading you with marketing, sure, but the truth in this case is written plainly in the prompt that pops up the first time you open the app store. [1] https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/app-store/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/app-store/, "We use information about your browsing, purchases, searches, and downloads. These records are stored with IP address, a random unique identifier (where that arises), and Apple ID" [2] https://news.bloomberglaw.com/litigation/apple-hit-with-class-action-over-tracking-of-mobile-app-activity https://news.bloomberglaw.com/litigation/apple-hit-with-clas...

pbhjpbhj 4y ago
>not be sold paranoia and the idea that the settings are always lying // Yeah, um, so if Apple et al. cared like you seem to, perhaps enough to stop lying, then that might be a first step towards people trusting them? You expect the weaker party to trust first before the stronger party even proves they're trustworthy!? >They're misleading you with marketing, sure [...] // They have no obligation to mislead. You want us to treat liars like they're angels.
- _23sd 4y ago
  I don't think it's about trust. The easy availability of short-form privacy policies and data export requests are the result of legal requirements, ideally you should be able to rely on those disclosures even if you don't know enough about the company to trust or distrust it. In this case, the disclosures correctly showed that this kind of click data was being collected.
shkkmo 4y ago
> While I think Apple's data collection within its apps is excessive, the only thing the researchers achieve by conflating it with device analytics The app store is the only way to install software... trying to pass it off as just another App with a separate policy seems disingenuous at best.
- acdha 4y ago
  I don’t think it’s disingenuous to point out that two very different things are being comforted. Most people understand that the App Store is linked to their account because it must be to support billing. That’s very different from, for example, tracking when/where you use apps or what you do in them.
  - shkkmo 4y ago
    Sorry, if it wasn't clear. I was calling Apple disingenuous, not you. Apple isn't just linking your App Store purchases to your account, they are tracking every single click and search term in the App Store and linking that to your account.
    - UncleEntity 4y ago
      Maybe linking that to your account. For all anyone knows they strip off the ID as soon as it hits their servers (which TFA also theorized) and only process the anonymous data. Which, due to the excesses of big tech, they need to ensure users is happening because there is little trust left in that industry anymore.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
fassssst 4y ago
Would people feel differently if we were talking about web apps, where nearly every click is sent to a server? Why is it egregious for a store to do analytics?
- _23sd 4y ago
  For one, because as another comment mentioned Apple's app store is the only option on iOS, so you can't opt out of it even if you really wanted to. I also find what Apple is doing particularly bad because the click data is associated with your account for a period of time decided by Apple (Edit: I said "permanently" before but that was wrong, it does expire but the privacy policy doesn't specify the exact retention period) and can't be deleted short of terminating the account. Compare how Google lets you disable or delete that kind of granular data from your account with the "Web and App Activity" switch.
  - askafriend 4y ago
    1. "App Store browsing activity includes information like the content and apps you tap and view while browsing the App Store. This information is aggregated across users so that it does not identify you. We may also use local, on-device processing to select which ad to display, using information stored on your device, such as the apps you frequently open." 2. "To protect your privacy, targeted ads are delivered only if more than 5,000 people meet the targeting criteria. The information used to determine which ads are relevant to you is tied to random identifiers and not tied to your Apple ID." 3. "Apple’s advertising platform receives information about the ads you tap and view against a random identifier not tied to your Apple ID." 4. It's also possible to reset this random, unique identifier or turn off personalization entirely. Source: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/app-store/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/app-store/
    - _23sd 4y ago
      I think that section is about how the advertising system uses browsing activity, not how it's collected and stored. Even with ad personalization turned off on my iPad, my data export has click records going back to 2020 (when I created this Apple ID).
jensensbutton 4y ago
I mean, Apple sold lots of paranoia around privacy as a way to boost their own offerings, so I'm fine with it. Live by sword...
1vuio0pswjnm7 4y ago
"This is about a request used to report a click in the app store, which is technically specified in the privacy policy [1] and you can get a CSV of it from Apple in data requests. This is the subject of a class action filed earlier this month [2]." The complaint does not allege that Apple failed to disclose how it collects and uses personal data. It alleges that Apple (a) provided a means for customers to opt-out, (b) some customers opted-out, and (c) Apple continued to collect data from customers who opted-out. From the complaint: "Even when consumers follow Apples own instructions and turn off Allow Apps to Request to Track and/or Share [Device] Analytics on their privacy controls, Apple nevertheless continues to record consumers app usage, app browsing communications, and personal information in its proprietary Apple apps, including the App Store, Apple Music, Apple TV, Books, and Stocks." The complaint only applies to a subset of Apple customers who indicated that they did not consent: "All individuals who during the Class Period (a) turned off Allow Apps to Request to Track, Share iPhone Analytics, Share iPhone & Watch Analytics, and/or Share iPad Analytics, and (b) whose mobile app activity was still tracked by Apple, (c) on an iPhone mobile device." When Google was accused of wiretapping by scanning Gmail, it could not prove consent and it had to settle. When Google was accused to wiretapping by eavesdropping on open Wifi, again it had to settle. It does seem possible that a plaintiff could succeed against a "tech" company on a wiretapping claim. Is collecting user information, app browing history and app usage history "communication" under a wiretap statute. The suit may be dismissed, but the issue of Apple obtaining consent to collect data purportedly for analytics is still valid.
ksec 4y ago
>They're misleading you with marketing, sure, but the truth in this case is written plainly in the prompt that pops up the first time you open the app store. Then they should be sued for misleading in marketing? It is one thing where it is legally to do so, it is another thing to have Apple turning on the speaker at highest volume for 5 years , largest attack on Ads and Facebook ( or Social Media ), finger pointing at tracking. And only to find out they are doing exactly the same.

by _23sd 4y ago

pbhjpbhj 4y ago

>not be sold paranoia and the idea that the settings are always lying // Yeah, um, so if Apple et al. cared like you seem to, perhaps enough to stop lying, then that might be a first step towards people trusting them? You expect the weaker party to trust first before the stronger party even proves they're trustworthy!? >They're misleading you with marketing, sure [...] // They have no obligation to mislead. You want us to treat liars like they're angels.

_23sd 4y ago
I don't think it's about trust. The easy availability of short-form privacy policies and data export requests are the result of legal requirements, ideally you should be able to rely on those disclosures even if you don't know enough about the company to trust or distrust it. In this case, the disclosures correctly showed that this kind of click data was being collected.

shkkmo 4y ago

> While I think Apple's data collection within its apps is excessive, the only thing the researchers achieve by conflating it with device analytics The app store is the only way to install software... trying to pass it off as just another App with a separate policy seems disingenuous at best.

acdha 4y ago
I don’t think it’s disingenuous to point out that two very different things are being comforted. Most people understand that the App Store is linked to their account because it must be to support billing. That’s very different from, for example, tracking when/where you use apps or what you do in them.
- shkkmo 4y ago
  Sorry, if it wasn't clear. I was calling Apple disingenuous, not you. Apple isn't just linking your App Store purchases to your account, they are tracking every single click and search term in the App Store and linking that to your account.
  - UncleEntity 4y ago
    Maybe linking that to your account. For all anyone knows they strip off the ID as soon as it hits their servers (which TFA also theorized) and only process the anonymous data. Which, due to the excesses of big tech, they need to ensure users is happening because there is little trust left in that industry anymore.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

fassssst 4y ago

Would people feel differently if we were talking about web apps, where nearly every click is sent to a server? Why is it egregious for a store to do analytics?

_23sd 4y ago
For one, because as another comment mentioned Apple's app store is the only option on iOS, so you can't opt out of it even if you really wanted to. I also find what Apple is doing particularly bad because the click data is associated with your account for a period of time decided by Apple (Edit: I said "permanently" before but that was wrong, it does expire but the privacy policy doesn't specify the exact retention period) and can't be deleted short of terminating the account. Compare how Google lets you disable or delete that kind of granular data from your account with the "Web and App Activity" switch.
- askafriend 4y ago
  1. "App Store browsing activity includes information like the content and apps you tap and view while browsing the App Store. This information is aggregated across users so that it does not identify you. We may also use local, on-device processing to select which ad to display, using information stored on your device, such as the apps you frequently open." 2. "To protect your privacy, targeted ads are delivered only if more than 5,000 people meet the targeting criteria. The information used to determine which ads are relevant to you is tied to random identifiers and not tied to your Apple ID." 3. "Apple’s advertising platform receives information about the ads you tap and view against a random identifier not tied to your Apple ID." 4. It's also possible to reset this random, unique identifier or turn off personalization entirely. Source: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/app-store/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/app-store/
  - _23sd 4y ago
    I think that section is about how the advertising system uses browsing activity, not how it's collected and stored. Even with ad personalization turned off on my iPad, my data export has click records going back to 2020 (when I created this Apple ID).

jensensbutton 4y ago

I mean, Apple sold lots of paranoia around privacy as a way to boost their own offerings, so I'm fine with it. Live by sword...

1vuio0pswjnm7 4y ago

"This is about a request used to report a click in the app store, which is technically specified in the privacy policy [1] and you can get a CSV of it from Apple in data requests. This is the subject of a class action filed earlier this month [2]." The complaint does not allege that Apple failed to disclose how it collects and uses personal data. It alleges that Apple (a) provided a means for customers to opt-out, (b) some customers opted-out, and (c) Apple continued to collect data from customers who opted-out. From the complaint: "Even when consumers follow Apples own instructions and turn off Allow Apps to Request to Track and/or Share [Device] Analytics on their privacy controls, Apple nevertheless continues to record consumers app usage, app browsing communications, and personal information in its proprietary Apple apps, including the App Store, Apple Music, Apple TV, Books, and Stocks." The complaint only applies to a subset of Apple customers who indicated that they did not consent: "All individuals who during the Class Period (a) turned off Allow Apps to Request to Track, Share iPhone Analytics, Share iPhone & Watch Analytics, and/or Share iPad Analytics, and (b) whose mobile app activity was still tracked by Apple, (c) on an iPhone mobile device." When Google was accused of wiretapping by scanning Gmail, it could not prove consent and it had to settle. When Google was accused to wiretapping by eavesdropping on open Wifi, again it had to settle. It does seem possible that a plaintiff could succeed against a "tech" company on a wiretapping claim. Is collecting user information, app browing history and app usage history "communication" under a wiretap statute. The suit may be dismissed, but the issue of Apple obtaining consent to collect data purportedly for analytics is still valid.

ksec 4y ago

>They're misleading you with marketing, sure, but the truth in this case is written plainly in the prompt that pops up the first time you open the app store. Then they should be sued for misleading in marketing? It is one thing where it is legally to do so, it is another thing to have Apple turning on the speaker at highest volume for 5 years , largest attack on Ads and Facebook ( or Social Media ), finger pointing at tracking. And only to find out they are doing exactly the same.