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Man of the Hole
- epolanski 4y agoBreaks my heart to think at how greed motivates genocides.
- solarpunk 4y agoI suppose the state of Brazil is something that could be considered a settler colonial project and with it's continued existence this sort of thing remains doomed to happen.
- shadowgovt 4y agoIIUC, the mining operation was extremely illegal (independent of the genocide, which is obviously also illegal). It happened on Brazil's watch so it's Brazil's responsibility, but I'm ill-convinced convinced that in its absence this wouldn't continue to happen (in its absence, there's no FINRA, no organization protecting these tribes... And there are still people willing to kill for mining profit).
- prox 4y agoAn organization made to help is https://amazonfrontlines.org https://amazonfrontlines.org , they do a lot work in this regard.
- shadowgovt 4y agoIn the absence of a Brazil, that work would have to include force projection. Do they have any experience hiring private military groups to protect the interests of the indigenous people they safeguard? It's not impossible, but "holding Brazil accountable" is a strategy far likelier to succeed, I suspect.
- epolanski 4y agoThe very same exact stories happened in north america too.
- dang 4y agoRelated: Man of the Hole - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32703518 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32703518 - Sept 2022 (3 comments) 'Man of the Hole': Last of his tribe dies in Brazil - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32638304 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32638304 - Aug 2022 (14 comments) Amazon activists mourn death of ‘man of the hole’, last of his tribe - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32633003 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32633003 - Aug 2022 (2 comments) Man of the Hole - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29445016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29445016 - Dec 2021 (6 comments) Isolated man in Amazon Jungle - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12557052 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12557052 - Sept 2016 (4 comments)
- prox 4y agoFor anyone interested in this topic, this organisation does a lot to empower and defend indigenous tribes against these practices: https://amazonfrontlines.org/ https://amazonfrontlines.org/
- bergenty 4y agoIt’s a real loss when we lose tribes like this because we also lose 50,000 years of accumulated knowledge.
- nine_k 4y agoHow is that knowledge accumulated? I suppose these tribes lack writing?
- MonkeyMalarky 4y agoOral tradition?
- nine_k 4y agoI was mostly intetested in the kinds of oral traditions, and maybe other traditions to catch knowledge without writing, say, using sculpted / cut figures, etc.
- prox 4y agoFor about half of its lifetime at least, the vedas were meticulously passed down orally with a priest present at its ritual to catch for any errors in word or deed. A teacher I had of Jewish descent said something similar about his tradition. It was a lot more common to memorize texts and cultural highlights. In the even recent past most people could recite complete poems and stories by heart.
- bergenty 4y agoEven today many Muslims memorize the entire Koran.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- kzbg 4y agoIndigenous Australians are known for their use of songlines: https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/allinthemind/songlines-indigenous-memory-code/7581788 https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/allinthemind/s...
- vt85 4y ago
- defrost 4y agoOn a related note, it's not quite forty years since the Pintupi Nine first directly encountered "the modern world": > In 1984 a group of Australian Aboriginal people living a traditional nomadic life were encountered in the heart of the Gibson desert in Western Australia. > They had been unaware of the arrival of Europeans on the continent, let alone cars - or even clothes. > If you want to know how Australian Aboriginal peoples lived for 40,000 years, just ask Yukultji. > She stepped into the 20th Century just 30 years ago. ~ (written in 2014) https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30500591 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30500591
- aussiesnack 4y ago"If you want to know how Australian Aboriginal peoples lived .." is a bit daft (I know you're quoting so I'm not attributing that daftness to you). Australia is a continent with a wide range of ecologies and climatic zones (we're not all hot dry desert!). There were some 500 odd indigenous language groups, living quite differently, despite having some level of continent-wide awareness (via trade routes and songlines). And they certainly underwent changes over those 40,000 years. Amazing story just the same.
- defrost 4y agoSure, you can watch Milli Milli [1] (for one example) if you're seeking a contrast between Central to Northern Western practices: > takes the viewer on a cultural travelogue through the three regions of the Kimberleys: the coast, the rivers and tablelands, and the desert. and you're correct about the breadth of languages across Australia as a whole. The point stands that this group were first hand direct testimony to Western Desert lifestyles prior to colonial invasion. One of the more interesting thing about growing up in the less inhabited parts of Western Austrlia (ie. most it given its 3x size of Texas with a pop of > 2 million mostly living in the SW corner) is the direct interaction with many people that still directly connect to traditional lifestyles [2]. [1] https://www.roninfilms.com.au/feature/710/milli-milli.html https://www.roninfilms.com.au/feature/710/milli-milli.html [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmKxmxk6Gas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmKxmxk6Gas
- MonkeyMalarky 4y agoSo, philosophical question here: Human zoos are racist and wrong, right? How is leaving uncontacted tribes alone to live in isolation (but under remote observation) any different? Fun diversions include: the prime directive from star trek and potential diseases spreading from first contact being equivalent to genocide. I think that in the end, none of debate will matter and that all remaining tribes will either be dead or clumsily brought into civilization without regard for ethics.
- lazide 4y agoZoos are artificial environments constructed to put things on exhibit outside of their natural environment for the education and entertainment of others. A preserve is an area carved out to prohibit the others from going in and screwing with someone or something. So basically, they’re polar opposites.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y agoIf we had a nature preserve filled with human beings that are unaware of the modern world, left to their own devices and hard lives, the difference in ethics is the entertainment factor? Say their lives aren't broadcast for consumption, is that okay? What about 10, 100 or even 1,000 years from now?
- lazide 4y agoWere they there before without anyone going out of there way to put them there artificially? If so, then yup, perfectly fine.
- andrewflnr 4y agoThe primary difference in ethics is whether you've forcibly relocated them. You're picking a really weird aspect of the human zoo thing to fixate on and ignoring the huge flashing sign that says "liberty". There's really no good reason to compare the scenarios. I'm a fan of Hanlon's Razor but this is the kind of obtuseness that raises genuine questions of whether you're speaking in good faith.
- rajeshp1986 4y agoBreaks my hear to see the indigenous tribes and cultures dying. We will regret Deforestation & forced-modernization of these forest based tribes. In Africa & India, some of the evangelical proselytizing has destroyed very old knowledge of the land. There was one tribe in Andaman & Nicobar island which had some indigenous knowledge about weather patterns, storms and earthquakes. It was found that the members of the tribe migrated to higher areas just before the Tsunami hit in 2004.
- friend_and_foe 4y agoAs much as it makes me sad to hear about it too, I think it's wishful thinking to say we will regret it. The entire history of civilization is the history of genocide and forced assimilation. Civilization is basically an ever expanding cultural grey goo meat grinder. The Romans did it to Europe and central Asia, the first caliphate did it to (ultimately) all of Arabia, the various east Asian civilizations did it to natives all across southeast Asia, Formosa, the Japanese islands. Every one of us that belongs to a civilization came to be here because it was done to our ancestors. Nobody really regrets any of it, save for some more recent examples and those too are usually just lip service. Give it a few more generations and nobody will even talk about caring anymore.
- ghayes 4y agoYou can regret the extinction of species, while still appreciating the beauty of the modern biosphere.
- gnramires 4y agoI, for one, am sad about those other assimilations too. > Civilization is basically an ever expanding cultural grey goo meat grinder In some ways, it was, in some ways, it wasn't. Civilization allows some ideas and some ways of life that aren't/weren't possible otherwise. An example cited in this thread is that of an aboriginal group (Pintupi Nine) that became artists after contact with civilization. Surely being a dedicated artist would be much more difficult without civilization support. Many civilizations were respectful of regional differences and even local religions and other beliefs (even e.g. Alexander). I mean, modern civilization essentially respects regional differences and has understood rights w.r.t. cultures. If you look at the consensus from social sciences it seems by far in the side of non-uniformization as being healthier and preferable choice for societies (and hence for policymaking). And of course and some of the absurdities of 20th century were ideas of supremacy and forced uniformity. And most important, civilization is not static (and not a physical law), it's a system, maybe almost like an operating system, and we continually are making choices on how to build it. And studying how our design choices contribute to better, more fulfilling, more interesting existences. I assure you, those choices are being made right now, and more active participation, in-depth study and science are important to assure to good future. (you shouldn't use the first few OS designs as a rule that all OSes will need to follow forever)
- silisili 4y agoFor anyone who hasn't seen it, Aura is one of the most powerful documentaries I've ever seen. I mention it because it's also about Brazilian natives, but two that were taken in. Their bond to each other, fear of the new world, confusion, and inability to communicate are heartbreaking. The way they try to smile at the camera alone is haunting. Available free on YouTube: https://youtu.be/kGuxaY8HPjs https://youtu.be/kGuxaY8HPjs
- mif 4y agoThanks for sharing. Very powerful indeed. Makes one question our place on Earth.
- qikInNdOutReply 4y agoWhat does one do, if you outlive all your relations and the world is full of man like monsters riding metal beasts? One lifes day to day and digs a grave for oneself wherever the wind blows you. Hoping that at least in the afterlife, you will be together with the butchered. The only way to stop poachers, is to provide the natives with area denial devices.. magnetic mines and drones. Nothing else will work. Ironic though, that the genocide of the north, which stopped and was historically recognized as wrong, can go on in the present day south, without creating the same political fervor.
- mavu 4y agoGood argument to hope climate change will wipe out humanity.
- elektrontamer 4y agoSo one small group oppressing another is a good reason to wish death to an unrelated 8 billion people? Even the good ones?
- juanani 4y ago
- cantrevealname 4y agoI wonder how the government officials were able to track him for decades? The Man of the Hole moved at least 50 times during that period in an area of 31 square miles (8,000 ha), which is one-third bigger than the land area of Manhattan. We see news reports about searching for lost hikers or campers, who want to be found, involving dozens of officials, volunteers, and dogs scouring the wilderness for days or weeks without success. Yet the Brazilians officials have been able to locate him many times. I wonder if they are using some sort of aerial surveillance. Maybe looking for heat signature from a fire at night? (Assuming he knows about or even needs fire.) Or perhaps trail cameras placed all over his territory. In a YouTube video the officials are seen giving him an axe and other gifts. A GPS locator hidden in the handle of the axe? I don't believe that's the answer, but thinking about all the nature videos I've seen in which GPS trackers are attached to birds, whales, mountain lions, and even house cats wandering the garden, it is at least technically doable. Hopefully there are some outdoorsmen here on HN who can shed light on how the tracking might be done.
- abarro 4y agoI've read somewhere that it's FUNAI agents with help of other tribes living in the region. There is some hint to that in the Wikipedia entry: "They observed that he periodically moved his home, building straw huts for shelter. He hunted wild game, collected fruits and honey, and also planted maize and manioc. Over the years, more than 50 huts built by him were identified by FUNAI."
- aflag 4y agoThe difference is that hikers die quickly and they are lost, randomly walking around. This guy was not lost, so he probably had preferred spots where he'd like to go for food, water, etc. Besides, he made large holes and possibly made other changes to his environment that made him easier to spot. Also, even if he was not spotted for months or a year, he'd be completely fine (maybe even thankful). So, time is always on the side of whoever is searching for him.
- sangnoir 4y ago> I wonder how the government officials were able to track him for decades? I can think of 2 major differences between locating him vs hikers: 1. Less time pressure as the government could wait weeks/months between locating him. Finding him once in a 3 month window is a success, finding hikers after 3 months would likely be for the purposes of recovering remains. 2. Hikers usually don't construct multiple semi-permanent structures that can be identified from the air (holes, animal traps, shelter)
- the_gipsy 4y agoSo why did he dig the hole?
- qikInNdOutReply 4y agoA whole language, a whole culture, a whole universe died with this man.
- vardump 4y agoI can't but think; 60 years ago this man was a baby safely with his caring mother and father. In a village, with all the other people. He lost them all. All taken from him. His whole surrounding culture. Imagine being him.
- carapace 4y agoOnce, in a small town in Colorado I passed two people, a man and a woman, and there was something very strange about them. I mentioned it to a friend of mine and he told me about them: they were refugees from the far south, from a indigenous people that no one knew. No one spoke their language and they knew no other. Their home and people had been destroyed and scattered. After that, I realized what was so strange about them. They were ghosts, but they still had their bodies.