4 ms·

So people with DSD / intersex people simply no longer exist now? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
houstonn 4y ago
That argument is a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of biological sex, which is connected to the distinct type of gametes (sex cells) that an organism produces. As a broad concept, males are the sex that produce small gametes (sperm) and females produce large gametes (ova). There are no intermediate gametes, which is why there is no spectrum of sex. Biological sex in humans is a binary system.
- eganist 4y ago
  Regardless, it misses the distinction between biological sex v. a mind's gender identity, and solely by the sheer quantity of neurons and possible interconnects, it's impossible to say that every person's brain strictly aligns with one of two modes of operation. (if anyone who specializes in gender studies knows more on this topic and believes I'm summarizing this—or even stating the problem—incorrectly, please step in; this isn't my specialty) In fact, it's only appropriate to say that every brain is unique in how it processes the self and the world, and that while for the majority of people it's easy or even innate to identify with certain characteristics, there are minorities for whom this isn't the case. We need to express inclusive empathy where we can, even if the only reason for doing so is to make sure that when we fall outside societally defined structures, we ourselves can also continue to be respected. Ideally we'd do so because we're trying to be good people, but my point is, even a selfish person should reach the same conclusion.
  - layer8 4y ago
    We should also acknowledge that language more often than not works in approximations and generalizations, and usually everyone still understands what is meant. There needs to be some flexibility on both sides.
    - dmix 4y ago
      This is an important point and it's lost in these debates. The new cool thing is to pretend context/intent doesn't exist, that words and expressions should always be looked at in isolation. Even though it's a fundamental part of language and how the brain perception systems work to contextualize and loosely categorize everything based on the current set of information in a particular scenario. Words/language is messy, highly flexible, and rarely strictly defined. For good reason. Mostly so people can win internet arguments and feel superior/victimized.
  - 762236 4y ago
    Hormones help regulate the brain and there are sex differences in the hormones. I have a hard time believing that someone can be in the wrong body, as the brain is a part of the body.
    - eganist 4y ago
      > Hormones help regulate the brain and there are sex differences in the hormones. Does every cell in every body react to hormones etc. the same way? There are differences between each and every person on the planet in terms of how each cell in their body reacts to things like hormones, neurotransmitters, and other signaling molecules that manifest either subtly or extremely. Anything from a person's height to their temperament to their hunger (literally, or figuratively e.g drive) can vary based on the production of and reception of these transmitters, and every single person's body varies in every facet of the above based on environmental and genetic considerations. > I have a hard time believing that someone can be in the wrong body, as the brain is a part of the body. That's an empathy thing.
      - 762236 4y ago
        That doesn't mean that those other considerations are stronger than the hormonal differences due to sex. The sex differences for testosterone are large. > That's an empathy thing. You're welcome to empathize with my inability to believe that someone can be in the wrong body.
  - jimbokun 4y ago
    Because sex is not gender. Biological sex is binary. Gender is a social construct that may or may not coincide with biological sex.
  - anon291 4y ago
    If you have no distinguishing organs that produce sexual cell lines via meiosis, and have never ever had such organs, then you are functionally sexless. This seems like a reasonable position to take. Given our understanding of embryology and development we may try to piece together what would have happened had something not gone awry and base our judgement on that. But if we don't know, then it's hardly unreasonable to simply say 'I don't know'. However, we are not being asked to acknowledge that we cannot know for some individuals, we are being asked to accept those with obvious organs and gametes of one sex as individuals of the other.
bewaretheirs 4y ago
My understanding is that "differences in sex development" or "disorders of sex development" is now the preferred terminology. See for instance: "Disorders of sex development, or DSD (previously called intersex), includes a range of conditions that lead to abnormal development of the sex organs and atypical genitalia ..." https://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/conditions/disorders-of-sex-development https://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/conditions/disorders-of...
SnowHill9902 4y ago
They exist and are the exception that makes the rule.
homonculus1 4y ago
That's a birth defect, not a sex.
knaekhoved 4y ago
Stop using intersex people (who have extremely rare physiological diseases) as a political tool to justify transsexual ideology, when >99% of transsexuals do not have any such disease.
- foldr 4y ago
  While you're right that there's no connection between being trans and being intersex (except that intersex people are probably more likely to be misgendered at birth), it's not the case that intersex people are 'extremely rare'. Depending on definition, we are talking about ~1% of people. For comparison, that is e.g. around the percentage of men who are 6'4 or taller (in the US).
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    > Depending on definition, we are talking about ~1% of people You have to use an extremely expansive definition in order to reach 1%. So expansive that it renders the term meaningless.
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    This is not an endorsement of any particular take in the thread, but this seemed like an appropriate place to correct a mistake regarding the frequency of intersex births and link out to some articles for the curious. That 1% number comes from the Fausto-Sterling survey which incorrectly lumps in Klinefelter syndrome, Turner syndrome, and late-onset adrenal hyperplasia. Eliminating those diseases yields a rate no higher than 0.018%, 2 orders of magnitude lower as the upper bound[1]. Only a small portion have cells for producing both types of gametes, only about 5% of all intersex people[2][3]. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ [2] https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001669.htm https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001669.htm [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_hermaphroditism#:~:text=XX%2FXY%20chimerism.-,Prevalence,than%20525%20have%20been%20documented https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_hermaphroditism#:~:text....
    - foldr 4y ago
Spooky23 4y ago
Intersex people are different, they have a biological variance.
HyperSane 4y ago
They are fundamentally just defective, as harsh as that sounds.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

houstonn 4y ago

That argument is a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of biological sex, which is connected to the distinct type of gametes (sex cells) that an organism produces. As a broad concept, males are the sex that produce small gametes (sperm) and females produce large gametes (ova). There are no intermediate gametes, which is why there is no spectrum of sex. Biological sex in humans is a binary system.

eganist 4y ago
Regardless, it misses the distinction between biological sex v. a mind's gender identity, and solely by the sheer quantity of neurons and possible interconnects, it's impossible to say that every person's brain strictly aligns with one of two modes of operation. (if anyone who specializes in gender studies knows more on this topic and believes I'm summarizing this—or even stating the problem—incorrectly, please step in; this isn't my specialty) In fact, it's only appropriate to say that every brain is unique in how it processes the self and the world, and that while for the majority of people it's easy or even innate to identify with certain characteristics, there are minorities for whom this isn't the case. We need to express inclusive empathy where we can, even if the only reason for doing so is to make sure that when we fall outside societally defined structures, we ourselves can also continue to be respected. Ideally we'd do so because we're trying to be good people, but my point is, even a selfish person should reach the same conclusion.
- layer8 4y ago
  We should also acknowledge that language more often than not works in approximations and generalizations, and usually everyone still understands what is meant. There needs to be some flexibility on both sides.
  - dmix 4y ago
    This is an important point and it's lost in these debates. The new cool thing is to pretend context/intent doesn't exist, that words and expressions should always be looked at in isolation. Even though it's a fundamental part of language and how the brain perception systems work to contextualize and loosely categorize everything based on the current set of information in a particular scenario. Words/language is messy, highly flexible, and rarely strictly defined. For good reason. Mostly so people can win internet arguments and feel superior/victimized.
- 762236 4y ago
  Hormones help regulate the brain and there are sex differences in the hormones. I have a hard time believing that someone can be in the wrong body, as the brain is a part of the body.
  - eganist 4y ago
    > Hormones help regulate the brain and there are sex differences in the hormones. Does every cell in every body react to hormones etc. the same way? There are differences between each and every person on the planet in terms of how each cell in their body reacts to things like hormones, neurotransmitters, and other signaling molecules that manifest either subtly or extremely. Anything from a person's height to their temperament to their hunger (literally, or figuratively e.g drive) can vary based on the production of and reception of these transmitters, and every single person's body varies in every facet of the above based on environmental and genetic considerations. > I have a hard time believing that someone can be in the wrong body, as the brain is a part of the body. That's an empathy thing.
    - 762236 4y ago
      That doesn't mean that those other considerations are stronger than the hormonal differences due to sex. The sex differences for testosterone are large. > That's an empathy thing. You're welcome to empathize with my inability to believe that someone can be in the wrong body.
- jimbokun 4y ago
  Because sex is not gender. Biological sex is binary. Gender is a social construct that may or may not coincide with biological sex.
- anon291 4y ago
  If you have no distinguishing organs that produce sexual cell lines via meiosis, and have never ever had such organs, then you are functionally sexless. This seems like a reasonable position to take. Given our understanding of embryology and development we may try to piece together what would have happened had something not gone awry and base our judgement on that. But if we don't know, then it's hardly unreasonable to simply say 'I don't know'. However, we are not being asked to acknowledge that we cannot know for some individuals, we are being asked to accept those with obvious organs and gametes of one sex as individuals of the other.

bewaretheirs 4y ago

My understanding is that "differences in sex development" or "disorders of sex development" is now the preferred terminology. See for instance: "Disorders of sex development, or DSD (previously called intersex), includes a range of conditions that lead to abnormal development of the sex organs and atypical genitalia ..." https://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/conditions/disorders-of-sex-development https://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/conditions/disorders-of...

SnowHill9902 4y ago

They exist and are the exception that makes the rule.

homonculus1 4y ago

That's a birth defect, not a sex.

knaekhoved 4y ago

Stop using intersex people (who have extremely rare physiological diseases) as a political tool to justify transsexual ideology, when >99% of transsexuals do not have any such disease.

foldr 4y ago
While you're right that there's no connection between being trans and being intersex (except that intersex people are probably more likely to be misgendered at birth), it's not the case that intersex people are 'extremely rare'. Depending on definition, we are talking about ~1% of people. For comparison, that is e.g. around the percentage of men who are 6'4 or taller (in the US).
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > Depending on definition, we are talking about ~1% of people You have to use an extremely expansive definition in order to reach 1%. So expansive that it renders the term meaningless.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  This is not an endorsement of any particular take in the thread, but this seemed like an appropriate place to correct a mistake regarding the frequency of intersex births and link out to some articles for the curious. That 1% number comes from the Fausto-Sterling survey which incorrectly lumps in Klinefelter syndrome, Turner syndrome, and late-onset adrenal hyperplasia. Eliminating those diseases yields a rate no higher than 0.018%, 2 orders of magnitude lower as the upper bound[1]. Only a small portion have cells for producing both types of gametes, only about 5% of all intersex people[2][3]. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ [2] https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001669.htm https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001669.htm [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_hermaphroditism#:~:text=XX%2FXY%20chimerism.-,Prevalence,than%20525%20have%20been%20documented https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_hermaphroditism#:~:text....
  - foldr 4y ago

Spooky23 4y ago

Intersex people are different, they have a biological variance.

HyperSane 4y ago

They are fundamentally just defective, as harsh as that sounds.