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A crucial point not mentioned yet: cross cultural issues. In an American culture, it is "self-evident" that clear communication is about being direct and to th

• ilaksh 4y ago
  Hm. I am an American, but maybe that American optimism stuff explains some friction I have had at work. I find that being optimistic when important things aren't working is stupid and increases risk.
  • nolok 4y ago
    Us frenchmen, on a world scale, tend to be direct, realist and pessimist. So american optimism is really jarring at first until you get used to it.
    • tnel77 4y ago
      I went on a cruise and met some Canadians (they told me). I noticed they were speaking French and said “Is that French you’re speaking?” “Yes.” “That’s really cool! What part of Canada are you from?” “The part that speaks French.” I just frowned and walked off as it was meant to be a polite question. An educated guess would have said that they were from “the French speaking part of Canada,” but I guess they didn’t like small talk. In hindsight, I find that interaction funny.
      • yamazakiwi 4y ago
        I wouldn't be able to tell if they were being cheeky or avoiding small-talk in that instance. I could be wrong but as a Non-French speaker I've heard that French banter is a little snide or pedantic in nature on purpose but generally not meant to be mean-spirited. Kind of like when a friend says "No Shit Sherlock" but with less enthusiasm.
        • tnel77 4y ago
          Their facial expressions said they were annoyed with me, but I could have been mistaken!
      • dutchCourage 4y ago
        Also they're forgetting than Québec is not the only french speaking area of the country! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language_in_Canada https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language_in_Canada
    • unconed 4y ago
      Your say "direct", but in my experience French business communication is ridiculously convoluted, bordering on the baroque. "Dear Sir, I hope this message finds you well and in good spirits. Would it be possible to arrange a meeting by telephone in the near future, perhaps even the next week, if that fits with your calendar? I would shame myself if I neglected to mention that I will prepare the requested documents at the earliest convenience." Is how I can only describe it.
      • yoz-y 4y ago
        Ah yes. Any sort of official French written communication is drowned in this sort of drivel.
  • 8note 4y ago
    I think an optimistic look at important things being broken is that you have an opportunity to learn more about those things, and make changes both to fix it and avoid the same problem again.
    • andrewflnr 4y ago
      That's more reasonable, but it's not (AFAICT, anyway) the kind of optimism being discussed as "American optimism".
• pschuegr 4y ago
  I'd say this is a solid portion of the reason. Ideally, we could talk about software in a completely neutral and dispassionate way without worrying about how the recipient will receive the information, or what the potential implications on ourselves are; this is the idea behind no-blame retros and psychological safety, etc. The fact is that a lot of work cultures are not in a state where this works, so even if people might be naturally inclined to do this, they may have been trained not to. The other big piece of it is... communicating is a messy activity. I'm always amazed how often you can think people are aligned on something, then dig in a little farther and realize that people have wildly divergent ideas of what's going on. It's exacerbated when you have folks who are operating in a second language (this isn't a slight on them, I have nothing but admiration for anybody working as a software dev in a second language - I don't know if I could do it TBH).
  • b33j0r 4y ago
    >The other big piece of it is... communicating is a messy activity. I'm always amazed how often you can think people are aligned on something I wonder if this is a bug, or a feature, if you will. Maybe the random distribution of variations in our understandings is an essential part of working as a team. Let’s say, every ant is trained to react by spitting acid as a XOR: if A or B, but not A and B, attack! If the social behavior is not a function of the rules, but more driven by whether a given ant believes {A, B}, and this varies in some distribution, I can imagine some interesting outcomes. Perhaps… One ant accidentally believes A ~B. That is their sensory input but not the truth. They accidentally hit a beetle, score! Wildcard ant! You get to reproduce. Not clear if that thought experiment extends into cultural differences. I’d say that means different rules, in my take. But within one group with the same rules, a distribution of different and even wrong information seems like an advantage. Maybe not for that one poor schmuck who wrongly believed A and B, and got his head bitten off. But antmortized we’re probably all better off.
• eej71 4y ago
  I'm an American and I think one mistake we Americans make is that we think we are very direct, but there is a lot of indirectness in some of our communication habits. This is particularly true in other parts of the country. As a native born midwestern, there are some indirect habits there and I'd say the west coast as its own too. So we're mostly direct, but there is some indirectness that we are at times blind to.
  • a123b456c 4y ago
    We're usually direct when we're positive, so long as it doesn't cost us anything. Try to get a direct negative response in USA, good luck. I only realized the indirectness of my second sentence after I wrote it.
    • karp773 4y ago
      Good observation about positive directness vs negative indirectness! I agree 100%.
  • zwkrt 4y ago
    As a mildly autistic person who grew up in the Midwest, my understanding is that it is not at all direct haha. East coast is much more abrasive and easier to get. If someone things you’re an ass they’ll let you know. And you can let them know why they’re wrong in a loud back-and forth. Then laugh and get a drink. In the Midwest people are too polite to say anything. Many midwesterners will bear an annoyance for years before speaking up as they are afraid of offending. On the west coast if you’re an ass people will just stop interacting with you. You just won’t be invited anymore. The lack of interaction is the interaction.
    • cdavid 4y ago
      The east coast/west coast is super striking. A few American friends were surprised when I told them I thought East/West coast divide was wider than e.g. NY/France, culture-wise. New York always felt like a more culturally diverse, bigger, English speaking Paris. When I am in Japan, there is an obvious "this is not Kansas anymore" aspect. I love it, I lived there > 10 years but I don't need any effort to know I am like a fish out of the water. On the other hand, California or Texas are still just unsettling, in an "uncanny valley" / twilight zone kind of way. Everything is "almost" the same, but yet so many small things that add up to a strange feeling. I guess American from a western culture background would feel the same when coming to Europe ? Not sure.
• deleted 4y ago
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• yrgulation 4y ago
  • protonbob 4y ago
    Culture is a real thing. And people in a country share one.
    • ungamedplayer 4y ago
      See Australia, yeah nah.
    • yrgulation 4y ago
      Indeed, but culture is not the answer to the question asked. The person bringing it in is attempting to explain personality traits with race and culture. A dangerous approach, usually employed by inexperienced folks.
  • random_kris 4y ago
    Might be strange, but is true
  • defrost 4y ago
    "French" isn't a racial trait - it's a teeming blob of culture with many facets and internal differences with a distinction albeit some overlap to other EU and global cultures. Please don't drag "race" into a comment that clearly addresses cultural distinctions from the outset.
    • yrgulation 4y ago
      Please read the definition of the word race and try not to make everything about it. Try and work with more diverse people so you can observe there are strong similarities regardless of race, instead of shutting yourself in a small bubble that explains everything around based on that.
      • defrost 4y ago
• falconinthesun 4y ago
  Fully agree with this. As a south american woman working in a multi-cultural company, I have a very direct and passionate way of speaking, which tends to mean I can easily dominate conversations and "intimidate" a lot of my co-workers from other countries. That's why I try to be mindful of this; there's dozens of tools one can use to have effective communication. Begging the question, starting with a negative assumption, playing devil's advocate, etc. The key to good comms is a) have empathy for the person you're speaking to, and b) assume they're just as competent and well-intentioned as you are.
  • yrgulation 4y ago
    Fairly odd, as I've interacted with south american women before in both a professional and non professional setting and there have been those that were passionate in speaking and those that weren't. Usually those impassionate were more experienced in their profession. So it has nothing to do with ethnic culture. Op is just attempting a racial profiling, and attributing management styles to that. Pretty appalling and shows inexperience both in management and people skills.
• theshrike79 4y ago
  > In all those cases, everybody thought they were very clear. I now work in Japan, and what Japanese would call very clear is very different from what we would consider clear in Europe or the US. There was an anecdote (non-verified story) about this going around a few years ago. A Big Company in Japan was expecting the big boss to come in and tell them what the plans were for the next year. A meeting was arranged with the smaller bosses. Big boss told them the plan and everyone just nodded and agreed that it was a great plan. Big boss leaves. There is a second meeting among the small bosses where they try to figure out wtf did big boss actually mean with his speech. It is culturally frowned upon to ask questions or admit you don't understand.
• btbuildem 4y ago
  That's a good point, but tangential to OP's question