6 ms·

Here are some altruistic reasons these events might occur: > - don't directly address the point of your question / provide a much complex answer (or even worse

by awb 4y ago

Here are some altruistic reasons these events might occur: > - don't directly address the point of your question / provide a much complex answer (or even worse, a non-answer) to a simple question > - don't stay focused to the point of the discussion I often dive deeper if the question itself raises suspicions that the question asker might not fully understand the topic. For example, if someone asked: "can you unbatch those 1k RPCs?", I might go into more detail than a "yes" or "no". I do it to spare the question asker from making a bad decision, without wanting to embarrassing them by saying that the question is too simplistic, or makes no sense. > - don't some level of clarity in their train of thought and speech You yourself are missing words in your communication like the word "have" in the quote above. Also, I don't know enough linguistic rules to correct you, but colloquially at least your title is better understood if you write it as "Why do some people not communicate clearly?" So some compassion when others misspeak might be good. Often it's possible to read between the lines. > - generally over-complicate matters by wandering off to other related subjects and extending the scope of the discussion Creativity is often the expansion of a topic, or the merger of multiple topics. Maybe your question sparked their creativity and they're taking the opportunity to show you some of their creative thought process.

wccrawford 4y ago
On top of that, sometimes the question cannot be answered as asked. If the question contradicts itself, even if only slightly, no direct answer would be correct.
unsupp0rted 4y ago
Sure, some people are not native English speakers, but in OP's case that didn't affect the clarity of their question, even with a couple inferred missing words.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- epgui 4y ago
  Even grammatically correct text leaves tons and tons of room for misunderstanding. English is not my first language either, and I make tons of mistakes... but because of my experience with more than one language I really do see the importance of grammar. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the way we interface with each other (the API of language) is purely stylistic and of little consequence. Every little aspect of language shapes our thoughts and impacts our ability to think clearly... Let alone our ability to transmit thoughts to each other through speech or text (conversion to and from which is very lossy).
throoooooowa 4y ago
> You yourself are missing words in your communication like the word "have" in the quote above. Also, I don't know enough linguistic rules to correct you, but colloquially at least your title is better understood if you write it as "Why do some people not communicate clearly?" Thanks, corrected the mistakes. However, I wasn't referring to missing words (which can be inferred) or bad grammar. Actually I wasn't referring to written speech in particular. I was referring mostly to the way one structures their thought and expresses it to someone else. Also, the question was referring to native speakers (I'm not an English native speaker myself).
- thwayunion 4y ago
  > I was referring mostly to the way one structures their thought and expresses it to someone else. 1. it's still relevant in spoken language. Perhaps more so -- inflection, intonation, volume, and speed add a lot of subtlety to vocal communication that is even more difficult to pick up on than written communication. Pauses indicate punctuation. Tone can indicate something is less important. Volume and speed can be used in place of parentheses or even footnotes. Those are just the obvious things. There is so much information that is very difficult for non-native speakers to pick up on. Or at least is very difficult for me to pick up on. 2. They might be speaking in a way that parses well to a native ear but is deeply confusing to a non-native speaker. > Also, the question was referring to native speakers (I'm not an English native speaker myself). Here's a really important question: do other native speakers in your group express the same frustration about these SWEs? Communication is a two-way street. If they are 3/5 on communicating ideas and you are 3/5 on understanding ideas, then you may have issues that a person who is 5/5 on understanding ideas does not have. I want to stress that even if you were a 1/5 (you're not!!!), the onus would still on BOTH you and your team mates to communicate well. It's not just your job to get better at understanding their mediocre communication; it's also their job to be empathetic and learn how to communicate better with you. Example: I communicate a bit differently with non-native speakers in spoken communication. I slow my speech just a bit (not excessively -- I talk very fast naturally, so my slow is others' normal). I avoid complex wandering sentences with clauses that resolve on different sides of the sentence. I try to add more roadmaps and use more explicit communication. I rely less on intonation, inflection, and pauses to convey meaning when speaking. I made these changes after I worked in a country with a different language and realized how damn hard it was to understand that last 20% of information that everyone else seemed to be catching.
echelon 4y ago
Verbal communication is a different skill apart from engineering and written communication. People have to plan how to break subjects down before and during speaking. Not everyone has adequate practice. Some people have trouble with eye contact and might be fighting subconscious social anxiety while simultaneously scrambling to put their thoughts into words. If an audience wasn't present, it would be easier for them. Some truly brilliant engineers struggle with this. Edit: If you don't intuit this or perhaps struggle, I strongly recommend taking an improv class. It should be a fun and safe environment where you'll experience your brain lighting up all the communication pathways at once. If you want to go more subtle and read people's body language and tone, take a Meisner class. These both help tremendously for people that don't get in the daily "exercise" as a part of their normal day to day. I've also heard good things about Toastmasters.
pydry 4y ago
I think you are reading this from the perspective of somebody who does communicate clearly who occasionally gets misunderstood. While it's possible the fault is with the OP, I think what the OP is complaining about is probably not that.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Macha 4y ago
> - don't directly address the point of your question / provide a much complex answer (or even worse, a non-answer) to a simple question If you ask me "how do I foo the bars?" 2 days ago, "how do I foo the bazs?" yesterday and now are asking "How do I foo the foobars?", it is easier for me to explain the information you need to handle that question rather than handle each time you need it incidentally.
tomg 4y ago
> For example, if someone asked: "can you unbatch those 1k RPCs?" "Can we do _________?" is the worst question to ask me as an engineer. Like, yes, we probably _can_ do literally almost anything, with enough hours and money. But what's the budget? What really is _______? Eg: If it's "analytics to a page", what do we want to track? Where does the data go? How do people view the data? I need to know the answer to those questions, plus the "budget", before even entertaining a yes or no answer. Which I think sounds like I'm beating around the bush by asking, but I'm not! :)
- avisser 4y ago
  One thing I love at my current job is people embracing the X/Y question terms. People will frequently ask on Slack, "How do I do X?" and immediately follow up with "I'm asking because in implementing process Y, it seems like I need an X." Helps so much getting to the root of the issue.
  - spydum 4y ago
    omg yes. state the underlying goal to achieve and detail how you intend to go about it and seek help. i dont know how many problems i helped solve only to find out the underlying problem was already solved in another way. ive learned to ask that as my first follow up question for random requests for help: is this the real problem or are you trying to solve a different higher level problem
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    This problem is as old as time and was really prevalent in IRC channels relating to software a few decades ago. Some friendly individual put up a site to explain the issue to newbies: https://xyproblem.info https://xyproblem.info
- nerdawson 4y ago
  Yup, questions like those are a trap. A direct answer is going to lead to being asked to build some backwards solution to a problem. My response to that type of question tends to be along the lines of "what are you hoping to achieve?"

by awb 4y ago

wccrawford 4y ago

On top of that, sometimes the question cannot be answered as asked. If the question contradicts itself, even if only slightly, no direct answer would be correct.

unsupp0rted 4y ago

Sure, some people are not native English speakers, but in OP's case that didn't affect the clarity of their question, even with a couple inferred missing words.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
epgui 4y ago
Even grammatically correct text leaves tons and tons of room for misunderstanding. English is not my first language either, and I make tons of mistakes... but because of my experience with more than one language I really do see the importance of grammar. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the way we interface with each other (the API of language) is purely stylistic and of little consequence. Every little aspect of language shapes our thoughts and impacts our ability to think clearly... Let alone our ability to transmit thoughts to each other through speech or text (conversion to and from which is very lossy).

throoooooowa 4y ago

> You yourself are missing words in your communication like the word "have" in the quote above. Also, I don't know enough linguistic rules to correct you, but colloquially at least your title is better understood if you write it as "Why do some people not communicate clearly?" Thanks, corrected the mistakes. However, I wasn't referring to missing words (which can be inferred) or bad grammar. Actually I wasn't referring to written speech in particular. I was referring mostly to the way one structures their thought and expresses it to someone else. Also, the question was referring to native speakers (I'm not an English native speaker myself).

thwayunion 4y ago
> I was referring mostly to the way one structures their thought and expresses it to someone else. 1. it's still relevant in spoken language. Perhaps more so -- inflection, intonation, volume, and speed add a lot of subtlety to vocal communication that is even more difficult to pick up on than written communication. Pauses indicate punctuation. Tone can indicate something is less important. Volume and speed can be used in place of parentheses or even footnotes. Those are just the obvious things. There is so much information that is very difficult for non-native speakers to pick up on. Or at least is very difficult for me to pick up on. 2. They might be speaking in a way that parses well to a native ear but is deeply confusing to a non-native speaker. > Also, the question was referring to native speakers (I'm not an English native speaker myself). Here's a really important question: do other native speakers in your group express the same frustration about these SWEs? Communication is a two-way street. If they are 3/5 on communicating ideas and you are 3/5 on understanding ideas, then you may have issues that a person who is 5/5 on understanding ideas does not have. I want to stress that even if you were a 1/5 (you're not!!!), the onus would still on BOTH you and your team mates to communicate well. It's not just your job to get better at understanding their mediocre communication; it's also their job to be empathetic and learn how to communicate better with you. Example: I communicate a bit differently with non-native speakers in spoken communication. I slow my speech just a bit (not excessively -- I talk very fast naturally, so my slow is others' normal). I avoid complex wandering sentences with clauses that resolve on different sides of the sentence. I try to add more roadmaps and use more explicit communication. I rely less on intonation, inflection, and pauses to convey meaning when speaking. I made these changes after I worked in a country with a different language and realized how damn hard it was to understand that last 20% of information that everyone else seemed to be catching.

echelon 4y ago

Verbal communication is a different skill apart from engineering and written communication. People have to plan how to break subjects down before and during speaking. Not everyone has adequate practice. Some people have trouble with eye contact and might be fighting subconscious social anxiety while simultaneously scrambling to put their thoughts into words. If an audience wasn't present, it would be easier for them. Some truly brilliant engineers struggle with this. Edit: If you don't intuit this or perhaps struggle, I strongly recommend taking an improv class. It should be a fun and safe environment where you'll experience your brain lighting up all the communication pathways at once. If you want to go more subtle and read people's body language and tone, take a Meisner class. These both help tremendously for people that don't get in the daily "exercise" as a part of their normal day to day. I've also heard good things about Toastmasters.

pydry 4y ago

I think you are reading this from the perspective of somebody who does communicate clearly who occasionally gets misunderstood. While it's possible the fault is with the OP, I think what the OP is complaining about is probably not that.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Macha 4y ago

> - don't directly address the point of your question / provide a much complex answer (or even worse, a non-answer) to a simple question If you ask me "how do I foo the bars?" 2 days ago, "how do I foo the bazs?" yesterday and now are asking "How do I foo the foobars?", it is easier for me to explain the information you need to handle that question rather than handle each time you need it incidentally.

tomg 4y ago

> For example, if someone asked: "can you unbatch those 1k RPCs?" "Can we do _________?" is the worst question to ask me as an engineer. Like, yes, we probably _can_ do literally almost anything, with enough hours and money. But what's the budget? What really is _______? Eg: If it's "analytics to a page", what do we want to track? Where does the data go? How do people view the data? I need to know the answer to those questions, plus the "budget", before even entertaining a yes or no answer. Which I think sounds like I'm beating around the bush by asking, but I'm not! :)

avisser 4y ago
One thing I love at my current job is people embracing the X/Y question terms. People will frequently ask on Slack, "How do I do X?" and immediately follow up with "I'm asking because in implementing process Y, it seems like I need an X." Helps so much getting to the root of the issue.
- spydum 4y ago
  omg yes. state the underlying goal to achieve and detail how you intend to go about it and seek help. i dont know how many problems i helped solve only to find out the underlying problem was already solved in another way. ive learned to ask that as my first follow up question for random requests for help: is this the real problem or are you trying to solve a different higher level problem
- theshrike79 4y ago
  This problem is as old as time and was really prevalent in IRC channels relating to software a few decades ago. Some friendly individual put up a site to explain the issue to newbies: https://xyproblem.info https://xyproblem.info
nerdawson 4y ago
Yup, questions like those are a trap. A direct answer is going to lead to being asked to build some backwards solution to a problem. My response to that type of question tends to be along the lines of "what are you hoping to achieve?"