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I envision something more decentralized than Cloudflare[0]. I think you could have local companies in every major city that would own a block of IP addresses an

I envision something more decentralized than Cloudflare[0]. I think you could have local companies in every major city that would own a block of IP addresses and provide tunneling services with SNI routing for people in the same region. They can also provide more expensive services like DDoS protection and caching for popular sites or even on-demand when your mom blog goes viral. > It’s better than no P2P but IPv6 solves exhaustion and NAT without the performance hit or protocol limitations and with no extra third party intermediary in the way. I just don't see ISPs ever implementing IPv6 without governments forcing them to. It enables p2p which increases upload bandwidth requirements and cuts into their bottom line. And even if we get IPv6 you still need the ability to open firewall ports in a way the average user can understand. Not hard technically but that's another standard that everyone is going to have to agree on and implement. [0]: Which I know you can appreciate. "Decentralize until it hurts; centralize until it works" is still one of my mottoes.

Spooky23 4y ago
Have you used a smartphone? Most mobile networks are IPv6 enabled.
- anderspitman 4y ago
  I just tried turning off wifi on my phone. After googling what is my ip and pinging the IPv6 address from another IPv6 device, it doesn't work. Whether it's a firewall/NAT/whatever is irrelevant. IPv6 as deployed does not provide p2p. PS - typing the IPv6 address was super annoying and error prone compared to IPv4.
  - api 4y ago
    Your mobile network is probably still V6 at the core. They're either giving you V4 at the endpoint or your phone is hiding V6 from you. Android or iOS? Apple stuff is V6 native now. Android's gonna be mixed. Depends on the carrier network though. I am on Spectrum (Verizon network) in Ohio and get V6 with CGN for V4. My wired ISP provides dual stack.
    - anderspitman 4y ago
      Can you ping directly to your phone from another device, or access a webserver on it? That would be awesome.
      - api 4y ago
        Never tried but I somehow doubt it. Standard issue UDP hole punching absolutely does work though. You still usually need hole punching with IPv6 if there's any kind of firewall in the way, but unlike IPv4 with NAT it's virtually 100% successful. Even if IPv6 NAT is deployed there's usually a 1:1 internal/external IP mapping making hole punching 100% successful.
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    Phone data traffic is proxied or NATted for qos and other purposes, even with IPv6. It works better outbound than the old model though. I use iSH to get a Linux shell and with a mini Bluetooth keyboard I work on some hobby projects on the train from my iPhone.
ftth_finland 4y ago
There is no ISP conspiracy to not implement IPv6. The hard truth is that implementing IPv6 costs money and customers are not willing to pay for it.
- anderspitman 4y ago
  Doesn't need to be a conspiracy, just misaligned incentives. That said, I do agree that customers aren't clamoring for upload bandwidth and p2p, because the software for selfhosting is still way too complicated and insecure for the average user to set up and run. It's a chicken/egg problem, and IMO the software needs to get better first (which is what I'm working on).
api 4y ago
All of the home ISPs I've used in the past 10 years have IPv6. I know a few don't, including some surprising ones such as new FTTH, but they all say it's "coming." Once you wire fiber upstream bandwidth doesn't matter that much. ISPs are directly peered into the core of the Internet and pay bulk peering bandwidth pricing not cloud bandwidth pricing. Cloud bandwidth pricing is completely insane, like 10000% markup or more in many cases, and the fact that they charge more for outbound is just a strategy to make data flow into their cloud but not out. Bandwidth is actually dirt cheap or companies like Cloudflare could never exist. The main reason they drag their feet on IPv6 is that there's no strong forcing function and dual stack adds complexity. When they're on a deadline to ship they punt on it. They are starting to get complaints from gamers though. Gamers tend to be the top home users that drive early adoption of all kinds of things. Edit: another funny thing is that most ISP/telecom stuff these days is IPv6 at the core. If they're not doing it at the edge for new stuff it means they've just got it off and are running IPv4 over IPv6 within their network most of the time. This is even more true for mobile networks, some of which are IPv6 only and the phone does 4to6. The rollout is still happening... slloooooooowly... The Internet is huge and it takes forever to do a major upgrade like this. I wish they'd have just made IP 48 or 64 bit with an easier upgrade path, but that's water under the bridge now.
- anderspitman 4y ago
  This is hopeful. I agree there's a good chance we'll all be running on IPv6 eventually. I just don't see it happening in the next 10 years unless the gamers can get us there. Personally, I'm hoping to see a selfhosting revolution in the next 5 years, and I think that's going to happen over tunnels and overlay networks.
  - api 4y ago
    It'll happen over overlay networks for other reasons, like the Internet being a dark forest hellscape where anything public gets attacked. Overlay networks are probably the future. IPv6 lets them be fully P2P and more decentralized. Edit: one more piece of detail about upstream bandwidth at home. 30-40mbps/sec up is a DOCSIS cable system limit. That's the only reason for that really. Cable was never designed to be bidirectional and the stuff they do with modulation to get shared upstream is heroic. It's also related to why cablemodems tend to use a lot of power. They have to blast spread spectrum pretty loud to get it to the CO. Fiber will save energy.

Spooky23 4y ago

Have you used a smartphone? Most mobile networks are IPv6 enabled.

anderspitman 4y ago
I just tried turning off wifi on my phone. After googling what is my ip and pinging the IPv6 address from another IPv6 device, it doesn't work. Whether it's a firewall/NAT/whatever is irrelevant. IPv6 as deployed does not provide p2p. PS - typing the IPv6 address was super annoying and error prone compared to IPv4.
- api 4y ago
  Your mobile network is probably still V6 at the core. They're either giving you V4 at the endpoint or your phone is hiding V6 from you. Android or iOS? Apple stuff is V6 native now. Android's gonna be mixed. Depends on the carrier network though. I am on Spectrum (Verizon network) in Ohio and get V6 with CGN for V4. My wired ISP provides dual stack.
  - anderspitman 4y ago
    Can you ping directly to your phone from another device, or access a webserver on it? That would be awesome.
    - api 4y ago
      Never tried but I somehow doubt it. Standard issue UDP hole punching absolutely does work though. You still usually need hole punching with IPv6 if there's any kind of firewall in the way, but unlike IPv4 with NAT it's virtually 100% successful. Even if IPv6 NAT is deployed there's usually a 1:1 internal/external IP mapping making hole punching 100% successful.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Phone data traffic is proxied or NATted for qos and other purposes, even with IPv6. It works better outbound than the old model though. I use iSH to get a Linux shell and with a mini Bluetooth keyboard I work on some hobby projects on the train from my iPhone.

ftth_finland 4y ago

There is no ISP conspiracy to not implement IPv6. The hard truth is that implementing IPv6 costs money and customers are not willing to pay for it.

anderspitman 4y ago
Doesn't need to be a conspiracy, just misaligned incentives. That said, I do agree that customers aren't clamoring for upload bandwidth and p2p, because the software for selfhosting is still way too complicated and insecure for the average user to set up and run. It's a chicken/egg problem, and IMO the software needs to get better first (which is what I'm working on).

api 4y ago

All of the home ISPs I've used in the past 10 years have IPv6. I know a few don't, including some surprising ones such as new FTTH, but they all say it's "coming." Once you wire fiber upstream bandwidth doesn't matter that much. ISPs are directly peered into the core of the Internet and pay bulk peering bandwidth pricing not cloud bandwidth pricing. Cloud bandwidth pricing is completely insane, like 10000% markup or more in many cases, and the fact that they charge more for outbound is just a strategy to make data flow into their cloud but not out. Bandwidth is actually dirt cheap or companies like Cloudflare could never exist. The main reason they drag their feet on IPv6 is that there's no strong forcing function and dual stack adds complexity. When they're on a deadline to ship they punt on it. They are starting to get complaints from gamers though. Gamers tend to be the top home users that drive early adoption of all kinds of things. Edit: another funny thing is that most ISP/telecom stuff these days is IPv6 at the core. If they're not doing it at the edge for new stuff it means they've just got it off and are running IPv4 over IPv6 within their network most of the time. This is even more true for mobile networks, some of which are IPv6 only and the phone does 4to6. The rollout is still happening... slloooooooowly... The Internet is huge and it takes forever to do a major upgrade like this. I wish they'd have just made IP 48 or 64 bit with an easier upgrade path, but that's water under the bridge now.

anderspitman 4y ago
This is hopeful. I agree there's a good chance we'll all be running on IPv6 eventually. I just don't see it happening in the next 10 years unless the gamers can get us there. Personally, I'm hoping to see a selfhosting revolution in the next 5 years, and I think that's going to happen over tunnels and overlay networks.
- api 4y ago
  It'll happen over overlay networks for other reasons, like the Internet being a dark forest hellscape where anything public gets attacked. Overlay networks are probably the future. IPv6 lets them be fully P2P and more decentralized. Edit: one more piece of detail about upstream bandwidth at home. 30-40mbps/sec up is a DOCSIS cable system limit. That's the only reason for that really. Cable was never designed to be bidirectional and the stuff they do with modulation to get shared upstream is heroic. It's also related to why cablemodems tend to use a lot of power. They have to blast spread spectrum pretty loud to get it to the CO. Fiber will save energy.