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Amazon CEO Andy Jassy says layoffs will continue into next year
- type_Ben_struct 4y agoSeems cruel to announce this with such a long timeframe before the layoffs conclude. Will leave lots of people worried over the holidays.
- GoOnThenDoTell 4y agoIt also gives more time to look for new jobs as a backup
- sokoloff 4y agoWhich probably represents an adverse selection problem for Amazon. Their best employees have seen their long-term comp prospects decline significantly (along with everyone else), and now have added uncertainty about their future at Amazon, whether or not they're laid off. If they are, they're going into a competitive market with fewer FAANG-level openings being hired for. If they aren't, they're bag-holding for the same amount of software with fewer team members to cover it. Why wouldn't someone look under those circumstances?
- AgentOrange1234 4y agoThere could be lots of reasons? Interviewing is a hassle. You might like your job and/or coworkers. You might (justifiably or naïvely) not be worried about being laid off. And with all the layoffs all over lately, you might figure it’s going to be a lousy time to be looking elsewhere.
- coolbreezetft22 4y agoAs a parent of two small kids, preparing for interviews is a major hassle if you're not a leetcode wizard. I can barely manage 1 practice question a day because I'm so exhausted all the time. I'm at meta and was fortunate enough to not be laid off but I'm starting to prepare for interviews over the next 6 months and trying to get myself in the mindset that I don't need to be at a "top" company chasing the best TC anymore and should focus more on joining somewhere I can enjoy and believe in the products.
- cebert 4y agoI agree with you completely. I have a two-year-old and five-year-old. My partner and I both have pretty demanding day jobs > 45 hours a week regularly. It’s very difficult for me to leetcode grind and balance everything in my life. I know I could succeed in a lot of these FAANG organizations if I were given a chance, but finding time to grind is difficult. I almost wonder if the leetcode interview style is intentionally designed to favor those with ample free time and no other obligations.
- yunwal 4y agoNot only cruel but unproductive. If I’m on a bloated team at Amazon right now, why would I be working on anything but my resume?
- 300bps 4y agoAnytime I’ve been confronted with the possibility of being laid off in my career I’ve put my head down and worked harder. Never been laid off thankfully.
- autotune 4y agoAnytime I’ve been confronted with the possibility of being laid off in my career I’ve put my head down and worked harder. I have been fired or managed out every time.
- the_jeremy 4y agoThat can't be the majority opinion, given how most companies try to avoid communicating the threat of layoffs in advance.
- bmitc 4y agoBut being laid off rarely has anything to do with performance.
- discodave 4y agoOne answer would be: Because the 'unregretted attrition' or PIP quota is still a thing! But also, people voluntarily quitting is even better for Amazon.. no severance.
- rxhernandez 4y agoWhy should anyone care about a PIP quota? Someone getting laid off or even fired in times like this wouldn't remotely make me think negatively of them.
- 4y ago
- ghaff 4y agoIt's pretty obvious at tech companies generally that things are not as stable or on the upswing as they were a couple years ago. Better to be honest that change isn't over.
- bmitc 4y agoIs it professional to treat employees like a line item on a balance sheet and then subsequently mismanage that line item?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- yrgulation 4y agoEasier to tame the workforce if kept under threat for longer time. Want to work from home? You may be chopped. Want better working conditions? You may be chopped. That complaint about your manager? You’re at it.
- givemeethekeys 4y agoSince Amazon lays people off all the time any way, I'd say this is more of a stern reminder to get crackin' than new news.
- solomatov 4y agoLayoff is pretty different from termination. I.e. layoffs happen because of economic circumstances, but termination might happen for many reasons, i.e. underperformance (after or instead of PIP), misconduct, etc
- givemeethekeys 4y agoIn California, one gets laid off (not fired, but laid off) after not passing PIP. One can also get laid off "at will" - any time for any reason. When you first get a job, you sign an employment agreement that outlines your responsibilities. If you're actually doing a poor job, why would the employer bother putting you through a PIP? They'd just lay you off. The PIP is a renegotiation of your employment without giving you a raise. They'd like you to do more for less because they think that either the market or your financial position is in their favor.
- orev 4y agoPIPs are mostly used so they can get rid of people without fear of a lawsuit. It generates documentation that “hey, we tried” in case it’s needed as evidence later.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- hanafudafan 4y agoThe layoffs will continue as long as interest rates remain high. Not a lot of people know the relationship between lending and big tech, but suffice to say that the bloat we’ve seen from companies with no product except user data will be unsustainable in the face of higher interest rates. Permanently, if they remain high.
- solomatov 4y agoBig tech income depends on the whole economy, most of which interest rate dependent. I wouldn't say that the business model is unsustainable (it's more complicated than you said), it just becomes less profitable (as everything else).
- rabuse 4y agoExactly. Interest rates rising makes pretty much everything less purchasable for people.
- amelius 4y agoNot just income, also investments.
- FormerBandmate 4y agoThe recent hiring has been fueled by record profits from the lightest monetary policy of all time
- vineyardmike 4y agoMost businesses I’ve talked to and worked with that borrow meaningful amounts are not so dependent on rates that increases of this much will meaningfully kill sound businesses. Rate changes as quickly as they are is the dangerous part, because it requires throwing out a lot of their short term plannings. Businesses and business leaders that have been around since the 90s are used to interest rates in excess of the current amount. The economy at large is much bigger concern and impact to businesses. Even land development would continue, with only minor hiccups.
- allthecybers 4y agoI think this was orchestrated to not give Amazon employees any internal (or very few) options for transfer. First they freeze corp hiring and thousands of positions dry up, then a long drawn out layoff is initiated that gets leaked in the press way before any senior leadership pipes up to talk about it. You have allegedly have 60 days to find a new position in the company. What positions? There is a hiring freeze. Plus in classic Amazon fashion the severance is on the low end of the industry. Plus the added departures just from the stress of not knowing who gets cut next. I guess this has been orchestrated for maximum attrition, which seems to be their forte over there under the orange smile. I'm not a fan of Zuckerberg, but his communication about the layoff at Meta was much more timely, clear and empathetic than this note from Jassy. - Zuckerberg: https://about.fb.com/news/2022/11/mark-zuckerberg-layoff-message-to-employees/ https://about.fb.com/news/2022/11/mark-zuckerberg-layoff-mes... - Jassy: https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/a-note-from-ceo-andy-jassy-about-role-eliminations https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/a-note-from-ce...
- jlynn 4y agoActually speaking with people at Amazon, teams are accepting internal transfers. External hiring is frozen.
- allthecybers 4y agoThey are accepting transfers. The number of available roles to transfer to has been drastically reduced.
- iLoveOncall 4y agoThis is not true. For example all of PrimeVideo has frozen even internal hiring, despite being identified as a growth sector for Amazon. A few teams may still be hiring but they are very rare exceptions.
- midoridensha 4y agoUh-oh, this doesn't bode well for The Rings of Power...
- angelbar 4y agoOr until morale improves... :-)
- JCM9 4y agoSo basically Amazon is trimming some bloated teams and re-assessing business units with poor financial performance. I know some people like to paint Amazon in a bad light but given where the economy is heading it would be concerning if a company wasn’t doing these things. Some trying to make this out to be more than it is.
- another_devy 4y agoIt is more. Amazon gambled the money and fate of these employees hoping growth in covid will stabilise or might even grow. Now the small bubble of online shopping fiesta is coming to an end they are throwing out these employees as a dead weight, while they were the load bearers in high demand
- fredestine 4y agonot really. they remain vague about it. they'd likely waiting for Q4 number to trim ALL teams from all divisions including AWS.
- g9yuayon 4y agoIs there any theory on why Amazon decided to spread the cut over months of time instead of planning sufficiently and then having a decisive cut?
- jetpks 4y agoTo maximize morale pain so more people leave without having to pay them severance. If you knew you were at risk of being laid off sometime in the next few months, wouldn't you start looking now?
- Wowfunhappy 4y agoBut doesn't this also mean you're more likely to loose your best employees (who can more easily find a job elsewhere) and retain your worst ones (who'll consider an unpleasant Amazon better than any alternative)?
- makestuff 4y agoWhere are they going to go at this point? Not many places hiring that will pay more than Amazon. One question I do have is since H1B is technically only allowed when there is not a citizen who can complete the job, does that mean that people on visas would be laid off first or does that not go into consideration for the layoffs.
- 4y ago
- yogthos 4y agoAh yes, the guys who makes 6,474 times the median Amazon employee’s salary is going to lay off a bunch of people doing actual work to cut costs. https://fortune.com/2022/06/02/fortune-500-amazon-ceo-andy-jassy-compensation/ https://fortune.com/2022/06/02/fortune-500-amazon-ceo-andy-j... Andy's package is so excessive that even the advisory board objects to it https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-ceo-andy-jassy-salary-excessive-report-vote-down-2022-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-ceo-andy-jassy-salary...
- jrib 4y ago> In 2021, Jassy received $212,701,169 in total compensation, Insider reported in April, citing a proxy filing the company submitted. Only $175,000 of that came from his salary. The rest came from shares: He was awarded 61,000 shares that would vest over 10 years, worth $211,933,520, when he became CEO.
- HDThoreaun 4y agoDon't worry, the vest is back loaded and he'll get pip'd before that kicks in
- gruez 4y ago>He was awarded 61,000 shares that would vest over 10 years, worth $211,933,520, when he became CEO. How did they get $211,933,520? 61,000 shares multiplied by the price at the time (eyeballing the chart, the 2021 price looks to be around $160) gets you $9,760,000.
- missedthecue 4y agoThere was a stock split
- mrep 4y agoSo 21 million a year. Levels.fyi has an SDE III at 355k a year [0] and a level above that at 538k which is usually what most pure IC managers are at. That's a 57% comp for moving up one level moving. 21,000,000/350,000 = 60x. If they have say 8 managers between IC and CEO, thats 60^(1/9) = 57.6% comp growth per level. Doesn't seem so ridiculous of a compensation if you want to keep the carrot above the stick at each level of the management chain. [0]: https://www.levels.fyi/companies/amazon/salaries/software-engineer https://www.levels.fyi/companies/amazon/salaries/software-en...
- cercatrova 4y agoLayoffs will continue until morale improves.
- plasticchris 4y agoNot quite: Layoffs will continue until the stock price recovers.
- cercatrova 4y agoThis is a reference to the common saying "Beatings will continue until morale improves" and indeed a variation of it includes my version above, apparently said satirically in 1964. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2020/07/15/morale/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2020/07/15/morale/
- Kukumber 4y agoMoney wasted on useless "software" jobs This shift was long overdue, hopefully we'll start to see meaningful projects that moves humanity forward from now on, economy of the self has to go I doubt that'll come from amazon, but the signal is loud and clear
- yrgulation 4y agoActually tech was a good example of an industry that distributes wealth around. Without high salaries that money would have sat idle in big pockets. I imagine a ton of gardeners, mechanics, restaurant workers, travel industry workers, will be affected by revenue lost from software engineers not working or not being paid what some people think is a high remuneration. Anyway not to worry. Software is complex. If the industry is not paying well then it will be difficult to attract smart people to deal with all that complexity. Lower pay, less smart people, less competitiveness, less revenue for us companies. Simple as.
- Kukumber 4y agoInflated salary in tech jobs = inflated real estate price = struggling lower middle class, go visit SF But that wasn't even the point i was trying to make, merit is no longer rewarded since the expectation for a high salary is the baseline, hence it's not usual to see high burn rate in big corporations and highly valued startups, inflating everything up to the point where nobody can compete anymore unless you go hire in india/asia with the problems that comes with it (socioeconomics) Check the various hiring posts from YC, it's telling > then it will be difficult to attract smart people That's a documented bullshit, with a high salary you don't attract "smart" people, you attract people attracted to the money Look, a "smart people" contacted him to offer his help for bare minimum compensation; that defeats your point
- fredestine 4y agonot everyone in tech is making 6 digits working at FAANG. stop blaming the workers. the problem is the gov, the economists, and the crazy policies during covid. there are plenty of other jobs high paid such as consulting, legal jobs that are not creating any clear value as well. at leas tech changed the way people buy things, communicate, move around, travel and created wealth into the midle class like no other profession. to earn well in law you need a network and a family that knows how to guide you through the best schools and best companies. same for consulting/banking a commononer won't get into rotschild or mckinsey. tech allowed all kind of people to build wealth.
- KurvaKing 4y ago
- wolverine876 4y agoSV businesses used to show off their innovation, intelligence, and eternal optimism. They used to think different and change the world with revolutionary ideas, including in employment. Now they show off their aggressiveness, power, ego, and disdain for all else - the world, employees, human beings. Now they invest in real estate and cryptocurrency, and flex by laying off employees and working them harder. What innovators. They've become dinosaurs. Who are the next innovators? Who has optimism, vision, and drive?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- whatever1 4y agoOf course they would not fire their retail people during the cash making season. Make them work hard, post your B's of profits and then promote them to customers.
- kshacker 4y ago"promote to customer" seems cut and paste from our internal blind :)
- thwayunion 4y agoThe denial rate for H1B visas dropped from 24% to 4%. This precipitous drop in denial rates was almost immediately followed by some of the largest layoffs in tech history. My belief is that the BigCos are using layoffs to constructively abuse the H1B visa program (and, more importantly, abuse terrified H1B workers). I'm fairly involved in politics and try to contribute in large enough ways to at least be a known entity to campaign managers. If you're the same, now is the time to continue your civic engagement. I'm fairly confident DoL will be watching BigTech labor practices like a hawk, looking for both intentional domestic labor displacement and also abuse of H1B workers. I will not be surprised if Amazon is at the center of intense executive and legislative scrutiny for the next two years as a result of massive H1B allocations immediately followed by massive layoffs. If you are an H1B worker being asked to work excessive hours or take on new responsibilities, reach out to DoL (NOT USCIS). If you are a manager/director privy to conversations about labor force reduction and H1B status is mentioned, reach out to DoL. Better to be the whistle blower than mentioned by name in a deposition.
- refurb 4y agoI cant speak for the crummy employers, but my employer was very sensitive to immigration status. They were willing to push H1B holders out to the very last wave of separations to buy them as much time as possible to find a new role. But yeah, crappy employers are out there, so any H1B holder should educate themselves on their rights and the employers obligations during layoffs.
- azinman2 4y agoI thought H1B abusers were people like Accenture and not Amazon. Consulting where it’s about bodies; the big co’s need talent in whatever form they can get and tend to pay well for it. It’s hard to imagine to me that Amazon is laying off just to get people more cheaply.. they can easily just pay less or hire more abroad.
- thwayunion 4y agoThey could, but why? The big cos colluded for years on wage fixing [1]. Amazon absolutely churns through SWEs; the average tenure in engineering roles is a year or two. [1] https://www.iphoneincanada.ca/news/apple-google-tech-companies-wage-fixing/ https://www.iphoneincanada.ca/news/apple-google-tech-compani...
- mensetmanusman 4y agoIf you are unsure whether you will be fired, just assume you will and consider this time as a paid job search.
- yrgulation 4y agoPeople returning to mandatory onsite means less disposable income and less free time. Naturally, online content and e-commerce revenue would be severely impacted.
- qbasic_forever 4y agoWow isn't the conventional wisdom cut once and cut deep? The morale hit for nonstop drip of layoffs is immense. I can't help but think Amazon is going to really destroy their reputation as a place for technical people to excel.
- bmitc 4y agoIt’s hard to know where that reputation comes from other than themselves and their hiring process. Nearly everything Amazon makes is a shoddy product that scales in a way such that it doesn’t matter to them. They don’t excel at anything they do except scale with acceptable (to them) failure rates.
- Rallen89 4y agono matter how big of a hater u ar of amazon you can't deny what they have going is really impressive, sure aspects are bad but still impressive
- johndfsgdgdfg 4y agoWhat does it tell about our economy when a value creating company has to declare layoffs whereas the ad-companies are still untouched?
- mandeepj 4y agoI don’t think Andy’s up for the job: 1. Amazon lost $1T of valuation during his tenure 2. Continued hiring aggressively even until last month 3. Failed at most important skill of a CEO - Communication
- P_I_Staker 4y agoClassic Amazon. Guessing due to the scary nature of them, they hope to motivate their workforce, and push back against all this work reform stuff.