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I can’t remember what thread it was, but someone here commented recently that when these consultancies produce this vapourware, it’s effectively just an expensi

I can’t remember what thread it was, but someone here commented recently that when these consultancies produce this vapourware, it’s effectively just an expensive study to determine the viability of a product. In this case, $250m seems to me a reasonable sum to ensure that the ASX will never again get tangled up in crypto pipedreams.

mjburgess 4y ago
Yes, that was my initial conclusion after reading the report. Some company was parasitically using them to drum-up interest in this useless product area.
tiku 4y ago
Well blockchain is a very valid case for tracking assets like stocks. I guess the implementation and backwards compatibility is a big issue, also other banks don't want to hop on the hype train etc.
- esja 4y ago
  Why does blockchain have a valid case for "tracking stocks"? We've been doing that for decades. Blockchain is a step backwards in many areas. So what positive benefits does it offer to compensate for its weaknesses?
  - csomar 4y ago
    Tracking stock ownership (at least in the US) is both messy and slow. And companies do either make mistake or do not honor their engagements (a la FTX, for example, by not actually having the stock and trying to procure it later when needed). A blockchain solution can make settlements faster, final and prevent the current issues. It also means you no longer need a broker to hold your stocks/assets. More sophisticated users can run their own "wallet".
    - newswasboring 4y ago
      This is a bizzare comment. To show how Blockchain can help you use the most recent example of Blockchain ecosystem failing?
      - matheusmoreira 4y ago
        A centralized cryptocurrency exchange failed because they gambled away their reserves and suffered a bank run. Nothing to do with the underlying blockchain technology, just good old unregulated banks screwing over everyone.
      - codehalo 4y ago
        Your comment is telling of the lack of understanding of blockchains 13 years in. Unreal. No wonder exchanges and consultancy firms are getting away with baffling the public and businesses with bullshit.
    - matkoniecz 4y ago
      > do not honor their engagements (a la FTX, for example, by not actually having the stock and trying to procure it later when needed). how blockchain would block theft without blocking valid transfer? This requires checking real-world data so all blockchain stuff does not help at all. (the same transfer may be considered as valid or as a theft by different groups of people! See various stories about evacuated gold reserves of countries that were taken over.)
  - tiku 4y ago
    For one, you can't sell stocks that you don't have, like the Gamestop stock. Also you can own and transfer stock outside of exchanges, like the old paper stocks. Smart contracts could even be used for adding dividend and voting.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - melenaboija 4y ago
      > For one, you can't sell stocks that you don't have, like the Gamestop stock. You can create derivatives of whatever you want, it does not matter how the underlying is delivered or settled.
      - redox99 4y ago
        Ok? But that would clearly be a derivative. Your spot market couldn't be faked.
        melenaboija 4y ago
        Ok? I was talking about buying things “you don’t have”. And the settlement price could not be faked but you need an exchange that offers bid/ask prices and that matches the transactions and that could clearly be faked.
    - m00dy 4y ago
      I recently wrote a derivative protocol for a fintech in Dubai. So, In Defi or blockchain space, you can definitely sell stocks you don't have (a.k.a tokens).
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - cuteboy19 4y ago
      Shorting would always happen off chain. As it usually does in the crypto world. So people who want leveraged trades would always do them on exchanges, who can then do the exact same thing as regular exchanges. Basically you can't force everyone to do transactions on chain. The benefit you mentioned only exists if everyone is on chain.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  When the most ideal case for blockchains still isn't usable, it really does paint a bleak picture for the future of the tech.
  - esja 4y ago
    The picture was always bleak. Cheap money and FOMO just stopped a lot of people seeing it. “Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.” - Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  Even better is good old relational databases with ACID transactions. There is a lot you can do with that to add auditing, providing perhaps the main benefit of blockchain but in a more suitable and performant setting.
  - slowmotiony 4y ago
    I don't have the login to the bank's backend Oracle database so I can't check anything in it. With blockchain, anyone can see and audit the entire trading history.
    - quickthrower2 4y ago
      Is that a requirement of a stock exchange? And if it is, guess what: you can create an API layer.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - redox99 4y ago
        The API can always return false data, it is a proxy for the actual data, not the actual data itself.
        quickthrower2 4y ago
        We are both probably parroting old blockchain vs. not debates, but my next move is to say: Your scenario is you can’t trust your stock exchange to correctly known who owns what stock, and you cannot trust their data feeds, given the heavy and necessary regulation of stock markets, given the very goal of them allowing ordinary people to invest in the largest companies without DD in a fungible way. In that scenario a stock exchange becomes useless regardless of the technology. Blockchain has other problems too. It is slow! It can’t keep up with the source of truth. And it cannot be the source of truth without slowing operations down massively. For blockchain to be worth it you would need different validation nodes operated by different entities and consensus. This will mean the end of fast fulfilment of trades most likely. If your point was about simple api bugs then that is an interesting point. Decent operations and monitoring should prevent this. I would put data loss or accuracy bugs with stock exchange data from the source in the same bucket as “making the exchange useless” as it is not providing a fair system.

mjburgess 4y ago

Yes, that was my initial conclusion after reading the report. Some company was parasitically using them to drum-up interest in this useless product area.

tiku 4y ago

Well blockchain is a very valid case for tracking assets like stocks. I guess the implementation and backwards compatibility is a big issue, also other banks don't want to hop on the hype train etc.

esja 4y ago
Why does blockchain have a valid case for "tracking stocks"? We've been doing that for decades. Blockchain is a step backwards in many areas. So what positive benefits does it offer to compensate for its weaknesses?
- csomar 4y ago
  Tracking stock ownership (at least in the US) is both messy and slow. And companies do either make mistake or do not honor their engagements (a la FTX, for example, by not actually having the stock and trying to procure it later when needed). A blockchain solution can make settlements faster, final and prevent the current issues. It also means you no longer need a broker to hold your stocks/assets. More sophisticated users can run their own "wallet".
  - newswasboring 4y ago
    This is a bizzare comment. To show how Blockchain can help you use the most recent example of Blockchain ecosystem failing?
    - matheusmoreira 4y ago
      A centralized cryptocurrency exchange failed because they gambled away their reserves and suffered a bank run. Nothing to do with the underlying blockchain technology, just good old unregulated banks screwing over everyone.
    - codehalo 4y ago
      Your comment is telling of the lack of understanding of blockchains 13 years in. Unreal. No wonder exchanges and consultancy firms are getting away with baffling the public and businesses with bullshit.
  - matkoniecz 4y ago
    > do not honor their engagements (a la FTX, for example, by not actually having the stock and trying to procure it later when needed). how blockchain would block theft without blocking valid transfer? This requires checking real-world data so all blockchain stuff does not help at all. (the same transfer may be considered as valid or as a theft by different groups of people! See various stories about evacuated gold reserves of countries that were taken over.)
- tiku 4y ago
  For one, you can't sell stocks that you don't have, like the Gamestop stock. Also you can own and transfer stock outside of exchanges, like the old paper stocks. Smart contracts could even be used for adding dividend and voting.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - melenaboija 4y ago
    > For one, you can't sell stocks that you don't have, like the Gamestop stock. You can create derivatives of whatever you want, it does not matter how the underlying is delivered or settled.
    - redox99 4y ago
      Ok? But that would clearly be a derivative. Your spot market couldn't be faked.
      - melenaboija 4y ago
        Ok? I was talking about buying things “you don’t have”. And the settlement price could not be faked but you need an exchange that offers bid/ask prices and that matches the transactions and that could clearly be faked.
  - m00dy 4y ago
    I recently wrote a derivative protocol for a fintech in Dubai. So, In Defi or blockchain space, you can definitely sell stocks you don't have (a.k.a tokens).
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - cuteboy19 4y ago
    Shorting would always happen off chain. As it usually does in the crypto world. So people who want leveraged trades would always do them on exchanges, who can then do the exact same thing as regular exchanges. Basically you can't force everyone to do transactions on chain. The benefit you mentioned only exists if everyone is on chain.
Gigachad 4y ago
When the most ideal case for blockchains still isn't usable, it really does paint a bleak picture for the future of the tech.
- esja 4y ago
  The picture was always bleak. Cheap money and FOMO just stopped a lot of people seeing it. “Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one.” - Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds
quickthrower2 4y ago
Even better is good old relational databases with ACID transactions. There is a lot you can do with that to add auditing, providing perhaps the main benefit of blockchain but in a more suitable and performant setting.
- slowmotiony 4y ago
  I don't have the login to the bank's backend Oracle database so I can't check anything in it. With blockchain, anyone can see and audit the entire trading history.
  - quickthrower2 4y ago
    Is that a requirement of a stock exchange? And if it is, guess what: you can create an API layer.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - redox99 4y ago
      The API can always return false data, it is a proxy for the actual data, not the actual data itself.
      - quickthrower2 4y ago
        We are both probably parroting old blockchain vs. not debates, but my next move is to say: Your scenario is you can’t trust your stock exchange to correctly known who owns what stock, and you cannot trust their data feeds, given the heavy and necessary regulation of stock markets, given the very goal of them allowing ordinary people to invest in the largest companies without DD in a fungible way. In that scenario a stock exchange becomes useless regardless of the technology. Blockchain has other problems too. It is slow! It can’t keep up with the source of truth. And it cannot be the source of truth without slowing operations down massively. For blockchain to be worth it you would need different validation nodes operated by different entities and consensus. This will mean the end of fast fulfilment of trades most likely. If your point was about simple api bugs then that is an interesting point. Decent operations and monitoring should prevent this. I would put data loss or accuracy bugs with stock exchange data from the source in the same bucket as “making the exchange useless” as it is not providing a fair system.