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It’s funny as a gay man to see all of these pictures because they really do read to me as gay with my modern lens. That isn’t because of some sort of special ga

• stcroixx 4y ago
  I have 4 kids and a full time job. There are not enough hours in the day to even come close to doing 'well' at either of these responsibilities. Time to build and maintain friendships would be a luxury for me. I get by with the knowledge that if I didn't keep doing what I'm doing, the people I'm responsible for would all be homeless or worse.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• NegativeLatency 4y ago
  I hug my friends (I’m fairly straight) but yeah the whole classically masculine vibe makes me pretty uncomfortable
• User23 4y ago
  This is pretty simple. Back when being a sexual deviant was heavily stigmatized, there was an overwhelming presumption that any public male-male affection was platonic. Thus these images wouldn't have raised any eyebrows in the time they were taken. Now that we live in an age where any perversion that doesn't involve children is acceptable, normal men are much less comfortable acting like, well, normal men. It's too bad. Even when I was younger, which wasn't all that long ago, it was normal for two boys to hold hands in friendship.
• fruit2020 4y ago
  Even going to a pub with a friend and I get strange looks. 2 straight guys having some beers. I guess gayness ruined the rainbow for everybody else.
  • shrikant 4y ago
    Is... is this happening to you in the UK? I've been to pubs plenty of times with just a male friend/acquaintance/relative/colleague/whatever and not only have I never received strange looks, I've also seen lots of other similar groups of pub goers. And this is in lots of places big and small across the UK, not just in "metropolitan liberal elite" locations...
    • fruit2020 4y ago
      In the gay capital of Amsterdam
  • zwkrt 4y ago
    Let’s be clear homophobia (with a root in misogyny)“ruined the rainbow” for everybody else. The only funny looks you’re getting are from close minded people. And it’s only ruined for you (the hypothetical you, not making assumptions) because of your own shame in potentially being perceived as gay by others.
    • fruit2020 4y ago
      You’re right. I din’t want to be perceived as gay. What is wrong with that? I have so many gay people I know. My dentist, my next door neighbors, my ex boss, my ex classmate, some work colleagues. I get along with all of them. Live and let live. Let me enjoy being straight.
      • the_gastropod 4y ago
        Interesting username choice if true…
      • briga 4y ago
• charlie0 4y ago
  I think that hard times is what really creates that sense of brotherhood. Unfortunately, in the modern western world, it has become really easy to avoid serious hardships once you get even to a modest level of income. I've wanted to do challenging things with acquaintances of mine, but they just don't pan out. I invite people to the gym, I invite them on long hikes, I ask them to do something challenging with me, but it's so easy go to just stay at home and order Doordash. Once you get older a lot of people have other responsibilities and making new best friend just drops down the lost of priorities. I've just gotten used to it. I try to find satisfaction in life through what I can directly do, and not what others can do for me (or with me).
  • snickerer 4y ago
    Oh Charlie, I read this, and immediately I want to go hiking with you.
  • themacguffinman 4y ago
    Is that unfortunate? If you've managed to avoid serious hardships with a modest level of income, do you need that sense of brotherhood? Brotherhood is forged in hard times because it's necessary in hard times. It strikes me a bit like looking for an emergency prepper kit in a land that doesn't have serious natural disasters. It's as if you're saying the old Chinese curse to yourself "may you live in interesting times".
    • germinalphrase 4y ago
      I couldn’t disagree more strongly. Not everything is War or Peace, and everyone is going to to struggle with something significant in life. Having deep, trusting bonds (brotherhood) is a source of security, even if the challenge is as boring and common as a passing illness.
  • zwkrt 4y ago
    I think hard times are a sufficient but not necessary condition. The reason that hard times create close relationships is because in a hard time you have to really be real with the people around you. You have to have mutual trust and mutual vulnerability. These are things you can have even in good times. Ideally we would have them and not have hard times. But I think many people are not really interested in opening up in this way without an external catalyst.
• unity1001 4y ago
  > it’s just so uncommon to see straight men showing any type of vulnerability or affection with each other. In Angloamerican countries, maybe. What you call 'vulnerability and affection' is a requirement for social conduct in Mediterranean, especially Latin countries. You wont find people who behave distant like in the US, or gasp cold like in the Nordic countries. They would be either foreigners, who would be identified as such and their behavior of being cold would be considered normal because they are foreigners, or, if they look local enough, they would be thought to have psychological problems, even autistic. In Spain, there is even a proverb that goes like 'being cold like a Swede'. And in some places, if you arent emotional and crying in important moments as a man or a woman, people could easily think that you are psychopath. Not exaggerating or kidding. There are great differences in between cultures on the planet.
  • zwkrt 4y ago
    Agreed, I’m definitely coming at this as an American. Even more so as a Seattleite, a place known for its relative social coldness even by US standards.
    • unity1001 4y ago
      I was told that it wasn't always this bad in the US either. A few decades ago, people were warmer and they socialized more. It looks like in the past few decades, social alienation and fear have set into the American society and started making people ever more distant from each other. Likely because of the stress and angst caused by economic insecurity, consumerism, the ensuing social and political conflicts etc etc.
      • zwkrt 4y ago
        I agree on all points. I think tech/phones have this effect as well. People become more like the machines they interact with. Seattle is probably the most tech-dominated city by ratio of residents in the industry in the US…
  • unwind 4y ago
    In Spain, there is even a proverb that goes like 'being cold like a Swede'. TIL! As a (straight, late middle-age, male) Swedish person this is kind of hilarious! :) Couldn't find a reference after some mild searching, but I did find another TIL [1]: "no te hagas el sueco" (don’t act like you're a Swede), which means "don't act like you don't understand". Interesting! [1]: https://cafebabel.com/en/article/expressions-why-the-spanish-ask-you-not-to-act-like-a-swede-5ae00733f723b35a145e19c2/ https://cafebabel.com/en/article/expressions-why-the-spanish...
• JetAlone 4y ago
  I'm a man. I don't even like showing tremendous physical intimacy with the women I go out with on dates. I hate it when people at my workplace or church touch me. My brain says "Get away from me, all of you".
  • zwkrt 4y ago
    • JetAlone 4y ago
      I probably gave that impression by describing it in such dramatic terms. Basically what I'm trying to say is, I don't like being touched much in general by anyone, and who I'm attracted to isn't part of that.
    • jimkleiber 4y ago
      I feel pretty frustrated when I hear it labeled as a "mental health problem." For me it sounds like fear maybe stemming from a past experience where he may have been quite vulnerable and got really hurt and wants to avoid feeling so hurt again. And in that framing, I think most of us experience this in different realms of life. I think why I have such strong reactions to "mental health problem" is that I get the impression it says "there's something wrong with you" and may make the person feel more alienated, instead of showing them I too may experience something similar.
      • zwkrt 4y ago
        You’re right I was being harsh, but I wanted to really make a strong point that the above commenter was not describing innate qualities of manhood.
        • JetAlone 4y ago
          I wasn't trying to say this was innate to manhood itself. I started with "I'm a man" so that, combined with information in the second sentence you'd know that I date women. I said it that way because I don't actually identify with any of the sexual orientation labels.
• jimkleiber 4y ago
  I'm a guy and have been focused on building tools to explore emotions for like 10 years. I think a lot of us men lack intimacy with close friends, especially emotional, because we lack it with ourselves. The analogy that came to mind this morning is that of a swimming pool. If intimacy is the depth of water, many of us are afraid to go into the deep end. We want to feel the narrow slice of what we've learned is ok to feel, aka stay in the shallow end of the pool because it's safe. Maybe in the past we went into the deep end (often falling in love and then it ending) and we almost drowned, and therefore we may be terrified to go back there, even if we are a much better swimmer that we think we are. Also, I don't think this applies just to men, as I was crafting this analogy today as a result of a woman who wants to seem to avoid going too deep with me or other people in her life right now, whereas I want the depth.
  • zwkrt 4y ago
    I think that’s an honorable goal. I like the swimming pool analogy. Some people and cultures are just so much more guarded when it comes to addressing their feelings with others. Even basic-level friend feelings of appreciation, compersion, and annoyance that are present in most all friend relationships. As a result connections can only go so deep and peoples’ friendships can feel empty and unfulfilling. The best part of having friends should be that you can be who you are sand say what you mean, but I see many people in my life for whom this is seemingly not possible. I called out the straights in my original post but it really crosses sexuality and gender, as you note!
    • jimkleiber 4y ago
      I think I hear you. I studied intercultural communication in college and think I got so good at adapting to culture and have been asking myself more lately about how much would I like to change culture. That's one thing I really appreciate about the article, almost saying let's try to (re)create culture to encourage friendship and affection and depth.
• pmarreck 4y ago
  I'm a pretty affectionate (straight) dude, but I also came from a pretty affectionate family (German culture, parents were U.S. immigrants), and in particular between my father and I (I kiss him on the cheek goodbye for example). I hug everyone hello and goodbye, it feels nice. There's no fear of gayness, heck I have a couple gay friends I hug but they know my orientation so it's fine lol. Looking at these photos, it does seem more close than I'd be comfortable with, especially the intertwined-leg photos, that seems a step beyond "mere" hand-holding lol. Or maybe it's not? Eye of the beholder I guess!