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I saw the guy who founded kinkos speak at Babson business school about 20 years ago. Weirdly, he was there due to some sponsorship related to disabilities beca

by ttcbj 4y ago

I saw the guy who founded kinkos speak at Babson business school about 20 years ago. Weirdly, he was there due to some sponsorship related to disabilities because he had ADHD. He got up and in the first 30 seconds said he thought ADHD had helped him, didn’t think of it as a negative, and just came because he wanted to tell his story. Like so many founders (esp of retail businesses, I find), he was super charismatic and had a very practical, easy to understand model of the business. It was the best talk I saw in my brief time at babson, and I saw a bunch of good talks by founders. I believe the guy who founded jet blue also has ADHD and feels similarly. Everyone has their own perspective, but if you get a chance to see the Kinkos founder speak, I recommend it (he might be pretty old by now).

triggercut 4y ago
> Weirdly, he was there due to some sponsorship related to disabilities because he had ADHD. Can I ask why you find that weird? ADHD is, and is also comorbid with other learning disabilities. ADHD has so many dimensions and interrelationships between those dimensions that everybody's lived experience is different. If you know one person with ADHD, then you know one person with ADHD, you don't know everyone with ADHD. Heck my best friend growing up had severe ADHD, what used to be called "ring-of-fire". Both his parents are clinical experts in ADHD, and have been since he was young. Yet despite knowing me incredibly well over a couple of decades none of them suspected that I had it. To be fair, three psychiatrists and dozens of psychologists missed it too, until one had a hunch that finally led to me getting diagnosed in my late 30s.
- bitexploder 4y ago
  I feel the ADHD is a strength not weakness mentality is generally harmful. There are some aspects of it that can help, especially when you are not deep working on one thing, but in general, I think it is unequivocally not a benefit to almost anyone who has it. edit: I would add there is some survivorship bias to it too. Successful CEO says ADHD helped? Huh. Cool. There is a reason alcoholism and substance abuse have significant overlap with ADHD communities. For example, I built and sold an infosec consulting firm and I have ADHD. I could tell you stories about how in some limited circumstances operating a business it helped. But that ignores all the times I struggled and had to dig deep into my well of ADHD management skills to stay focused and efficient on chores I don’t like doing.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - triggercut 4y ago
    I generally agree with that. It should not be glamourized. I liken it to being like Cyclops in the X-Men. Sure you can shoot lasers out of your eyes, but you can never look upon the love of your life naturally and unfiltered. That being said, some of most cherished achievements would not have been possible without it, and that's where the cognitive dissonance begins.
    - bitexploder 4y ago
      I feel like I just don’t know. How can I? I can hyperfocus, get into flow, and crank through things that make hours and days and weeks fly by. I can also be deeep in the pit of distraction where it is impossible to start anything and I feel broken and the deeper I get the more I try to avoid doing even the smallest thing that might mean forward progress because everything is already so bad so just go and play some games or something anyway. Granted that was my early 20s and I learned to achieve balance and even now in my early 40s I can focus on demand but it took me a loooong time to get there and I think my approach to how I do that and the way I structure my life is different from a NT persons. And for most people that was their normal their whole life.
      - tstrimple 4y ago
        I very much relate to this. Sometimes challenging and complicated problems come apart easily. Sometimes you waste a week procrastinating something simple. Unfortunately my procrastination has been rewarded so many times. Of you've got a change in scope for the thing I haven't even started yet? No problem! Oh, our priorities have changed and we no longer need that thing? Fantastic! Most recently, I was supposed to be planning a vacation with another family. I procrastinated it long enough that circumstances changed and the other family had to cancel for unrelated reasons. That can be even more frustrating because I know it's just reinforcing those bad behaviors.
        4y ago
- listenallyall 4y ago
  If 2 clinical experts, 3 psychiatrists and dozens of psychologists didn't think you had ADHD, but eventually one person did, how do you know with certainty you actually have it?
  - triggercut 4y ago
    Before explaining it's important to note that even if it wasn't intended to be, comments such as this can be incredibly harmful, especially with people who are preparing too to get diagnosed, or who have recently been diagnosed. Doubting your diagnosis (or any mental health diagnosis) is an incredibly common and damaging thing for treatment. Please be mindful in avoiding activating that negative belief. It's not that they didn't think I had it. It never occurred to them that it might be the problem, for several reasons. I presented very clearly suffering from MDD and general anxiety and have been medicated for that my entire adult life. But in fact the MDD and anxiety were just symptoms of living undiagnosed and trying to live as best I could with what worked for me.
    - listenallyall 4y ago
      I'm objectively responding to an anonymous comment in an internet forum, with no knowledge whatsoever about your background, sex, gender, race, age, location, or anything about your mental condition. It would be impossible for me to diagnose you or to question such a diagnosis. > comments such as this can be incredibly harmful For anyone reading this exchange, ignoring, or going against, the opinion of 30+ mental health professionals can also potentially be harmful.
      - TeMPOraL 4y ago
        > For anyone reading his exchange, ignoring, or going against, the opinion of 30+ mental health professionals can also be harmful. In defense of GP, I want to caveat with this: if you go to a random psychiatrist and tell them about your issues, it's quite likely you'll get evaluated for the "usual suspects", such as depression. A proper evaluation (not just initial diagnosis, but matching treatment and noticing effects) can easily take over a year, since medication used in depression treatment usually take a month to kick in, and you might need to go through several before finding one that works for you, if at all - while also dealing with some nasty side effects. Now, imagine a person with ADHD staring this path. How likely is it they'll go through the process diligently for a year or more, until the doctor figures out something else is going on? What's more likely to happen is, the person will keep taking the meds for a while, then forget to schedule a visit before running out, run out, enter withdrawal, then be unable to schedule a visit, leave withdrawal few weeks later, and feel too ashamed to talk to that doctor again. So in a few months or more, they may go to another psychiatrist... ... who will want to re-examine them for depression just to be sure, starting the cycle anew. I wasted a decade of my life on exactly this. Hence my standing recommendation: if you suspect ADHD, find a psychiatrist who's actually specializing in adult ADHD (and not just has it on a list of things they can help you with). ADHD can often be diagnosed or ruled out in days to weeks; going to an ADHD specialist isn't about trying to "get your favored diagnosis" (if you feel worried about this, just be up-front with them) - it's about minimizing the chance they'll dismiss this as an option, as (from copious anecdotal evidence) most other psychiatrists do.
- ttcbj 4y ago
  Fair question. I think I used that word because at the beginning of the talk, the person who had organized the talk gave a five minute ibtro about how admirable it was that he was willing to acknowledge the difficulty of his ADHD, etc. Then he stood up, was clearly having none of it, said he thought it was an advantage, and then gave a long talk with no reference to it. I guess it was weird because he didn’t seem into that angle at all. But he was a great speaker, really inspiring. Edit: I wasn’t necessarily trying to advocate that his perspective was correct for anyone else, but just reporting that this is what happened as a matter of fact.
ultrasounder 4y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvqIkJfYzX8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvqIkJfYzX8.
klysm 4y ago
I don’t think referring to it outright as a strength is a useful thing. It has negative and positive consequences, and the impacts on your life depend upon a huge number of factors.
Waterluvian 4y ago
Everyone’s different. For me, ADHD is like being an RPG class with different “stances” or “modals”. I can be energetic and fun and charming (allegedly) and very social, quick witted, a natural comedian. Or I can be quiet and focused and studious. But I can never be both at the same time. Concerta is what lets me pick. I’ve never seen it as a disability because it is an advantage in so many ways. I’m just so thankful I get to control it.
- artdigital 4y ago
  If your ADHD manifests in being quiet and focused vs very social as the extremes, then you got hit very mild
  - tonyarkles 4y ago
    I think the punchline is that they can be "quiet and focused" when they take Methylphenidate and social/reckless/fun when they don't. That was the problem for me before I was diagnosed and medicated. I wanted so badly to be able to be quite and focused, but it was practically impossible to do it through will. Sometimes I would get lucky and something would catch my interest (hyperfocus), but most of the time I was all over the damned place.
    - Waterluvian 4y ago
      Right?! I take amphetamines to quiet down and focus. And it’s just the best, warmest feeling ever… being able to sit for literally hours and read or do work. Sometimes I weep, it’s so liberating. Like I honestly thought people who said they could read a book in a single day were just liars. But I did it once!!!
      - grhappl 4y ago
        Know what you mean, I was astounded when I took my first dose. It was like the usual relentless mind-noise had switched itself off, and I could just get on with stuff.
- 4y ago
tstrimple 4y ago
It can feel like a super power at times. But it's one you cannot control. When I was in my teens and early twenties my area of interest happened to align with something which would turn into a very lucrative career. Software development. I couldn't get enough of it. I soaked things up like a sponge and was able to internalize so much that has stuck with me. But once I "figured out" programming, the interest dropped to almost zero. I love solving problems and learning things and there is no way in hell I could participate in most software development teams because the vast majority of programming is little more than typing out previously solved problems. There is no mystery to a CRUD API endpoint. The only time I jump into code these days is to help out with tricky bugs. Diving into an unfamiliar code base to solve a problem others aren't able to checks all of those puzzle solving and learning boxes which gets my attention going again. I'm not sure about building a business with ADHD. I see that path as extremely difficult unless your super focus happens to align with what your building long enough to get to a point where you can make money off of it. That seems unlikely. Once you're running a successful business, I believe coping with ADHD would be significantly easier. A CEO can delegate the things they are worst at to focus on the thing they are best at and which deliver the most value. The vast majority of individual contributors don't have that option. ADHD keeps me on the move and has given me a very broad skill set and understanding of many different industries. I've worked in health care with medical devices to building interactive kiosks to writing device firmware to applying AI to livestock management to insurance and banking modernization. In that sense it's a super power. But I still cannot build myself a personal website or blog despite wanting to because that shit is really hard for me. This doesn't even touch on the damage ADHD can do to relationships. I had a very difficult time connecting with my children when they were babies and toddlers because, let's be honest, they are boring most of the time. This became significantly easier as they got older and we were able to start actually having conversations. There are also times where my inattentiveness gets to the point where I literally cannot pay attention to what my wife is saying. It's a struggle to try to separate my brain from what it's trying to pay attention to and redirect it to her. When I don't see people they basically stop existing. I have no relationship with my parents or siblings and almost no long term friendships because of this. It's extremely easy for me to get disconnected.
- bpicolo 4y ago
jamestimmins 4y ago
I actually took a class he taught in college. Every Wednesday night we'd meet at the university club for dinner and he'd "teach". It was wildly entertaining, although I'm not sure how much I learned tbh. He did get in trouble with the school for buying us all booze once, which was pretty hilarious.

by ttcbj 4y ago

triggercut 4y ago

> Weirdly, he was there due to some sponsorship related to disabilities because he had ADHD. Can I ask why you find that weird? ADHD is, and is also comorbid with other learning disabilities. ADHD has so many dimensions and interrelationships between those dimensions that everybody's lived experience is different. If you know one person with ADHD, then you know one person with ADHD, you don't know everyone with ADHD. Heck my best friend growing up had severe ADHD, what used to be called "ring-of-fire". Both his parents are clinical experts in ADHD, and have been since he was young. Yet despite knowing me incredibly well over a couple of decades none of them suspected that I had it. To be fair, three psychiatrists and dozens of psychologists missed it too, until one had a hunch that finally led to me getting diagnosed in my late 30s.

bitexploder 4y ago
I feel the ADHD is a strength not weakness mentality is generally harmful. There are some aspects of it that can help, especially when you are not deep working on one thing, but in general, I think it is unequivocally not a benefit to almost anyone who has it. edit: I would add there is some survivorship bias to it too. Successful CEO says ADHD helped? Huh. Cool. There is a reason alcoholism and substance abuse have significant overlap with ADHD communities. For example, I built and sold an infosec consulting firm and I have ADHD. I could tell you stories about how in some limited circumstances operating a business it helped. But that ignores all the times I struggled and had to dig deep into my well of ADHD management skills to stay focused and efficient on chores I don’t like doing.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- triggercut 4y ago
  I generally agree with that. It should not be glamourized. I liken it to being like Cyclops in the X-Men. Sure you can shoot lasers out of your eyes, but you can never look upon the love of your life naturally and unfiltered. That being said, some of most cherished achievements would not have been possible without it, and that's where the cognitive dissonance begins.
  - bitexploder 4y ago
    I feel like I just don’t know. How can I? I can hyperfocus, get into flow, and crank through things that make hours and days and weeks fly by. I can also be deeep in the pit of distraction where it is impossible to start anything and I feel broken and the deeper I get the more I try to avoid doing even the smallest thing that might mean forward progress because everything is already so bad so just go and play some games or something anyway. Granted that was my early 20s and I learned to achieve balance and even now in my early 40s I can focus on demand but it took me a loooong time to get there and I think my approach to how I do that and the way I structure my life is different from a NT persons. And for most people that was their normal their whole life.
    - tstrimple 4y ago
      I very much relate to this. Sometimes challenging and complicated problems come apart easily. Sometimes you waste a week procrastinating something simple. Unfortunately my procrastination has been rewarded so many times. Of you've got a change in scope for the thing I haven't even started yet? No problem! Oh, our priorities have changed and we no longer need that thing? Fantastic! Most recently, I was supposed to be planning a vacation with another family. I procrastinated it long enough that circumstances changed and the other family had to cancel for unrelated reasons. That can be even more frustrating because I know it's just reinforcing those bad behaviors.
      - 4y ago
listenallyall 4y ago
If 2 clinical experts, 3 psychiatrists and dozens of psychologists didn't think you had ADHD, but eventually one person did, how do you know with certainty you actually have it?
- triggercut 4y ago
  Before explaining it's important to note that even if it wasn't intended to be, comments such as this can be incredibly harmful, especially with people who are preparing too to get diagnosed, or who have recently been diagnosed. Doubting your diagnosis (or any mental health diagnosis) is an incredibly common and damaging thing for treatment. Please be mindful in avoiding activating that negative belief. It's not that they didn't think I had it. It never occurred to them that it might be the problem, for several reasons. I presented very clearly suffering from MDD and general anxiety and have been medicated for that my entire adult life. But in fact the MDD and anxiety were just symptoms of living undiagnosed and trying to live as best I could with what worked for me.
  - listenallyall 4y ago
    I'm objectively responding to an anonymous comment in an internet forum, with no knowledge whatsoever about your background, sex, gender, race, age, location, or anything about your mental condition. It would be impossible for me to diagnose you or to question such a diagnosis. > comments such as this can be incredibly harmful For anyone reading this exchange, ignoring, or going against, the opinion of 30+ mental health professionals can also potentially be harmful.
    - TeMPOraL 4y ago
      > For anyone reading his exchange, ignoring, or going against, the opinion of 30+ mental health professionals can also be harmful. In defense of GP, I want to caveat with this: if you go to a random psychiatrist and tell them about your issues, it's quite likely you'll get evaluated for the "usual suspects", such as depression. A proper evaluation (not just initial diagnosis, but matching treatment and noticing effects) can easily take over a year, since medication used in depression treatment usually take a month to kick in, and you might need to go through several before finding one that works for you, if at all - while also dealing with some nasty side effects. Now, imagine a person with ADHD staring this path. How likely is it they'll go through the process diligently for a year or more, until the doctor figures out something else is going on? What's more likely to happen is, the person will keep taking the meds for a while, then forget to schedule a visit before running out, run out, enter withdrawal, then be unable to schedule a visit, leave withdrawal few weeks later, and feel too ashamed to talk to that doctor again. So in a few months or more, they may go to another psychiatrist... ... who will want to re-examine them for depression just to be sure, starting the cycle anew. I wasted a decade of my life on exactly this. Hence my standing recommendation: if you suspect ADHD, find a psychiatrist who's actually specializing in adult ADHD (and not just has it on a list of things they can help you with). ADHD can often be diagnosed or ruled out in days to weeks; going to an ADHD specialist isn't about trying to "get your favored diagnosis" (if you feel worried about this, just be up-front with them) - it's about minimizing the chance they'll dismiss this as an option, as (from copious anecdotal evidence) most other psychiatrists do.
ttcbj 4y ago
Fair question. I think I used that word because at the beginning of the talk, the person who had organized the talk gave a five minute ibtro about how admirable it was that he was willing to acknowledge the difficulty of his ADHD, etc. Then he stood up, was clearly having none of it, said he thought it was an advantage, and then gave a long talk with no reference to it. I guess it was weird because he didn’t seem into that angle at all. But he was a great speaker, really inspiring. Edit: I wasn’t necessarily trying to advocate that his perspective was correct for anyone else, but just reporting that this is what happened as a matter of fact.

ultrasounder 4y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvqIkJfYzX8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvqIkJfYzX8.

klysm 4y ago

I don’t think referring to it outright as a strength is a useful thing. It has negative and positive consequences, and the impacts on your life depend upon a huge number of factors.

Waterluvian 4y ago

Everyone’s different. For me, ADHD is like being an RPG class with different “stances” or “modals”. I can be energetic and fun and charming (allegedly) and very social, quick witted, a natural comedian. Or I can be quiet and focused and studious. But I can never be both at the same time. Concerta is what lets me pick. I’ve never seen it as a disability because it is an advantage in so many ways. I’m just so thankful I get to control it.

artdigital 4y ago
If your ADHD manifests in being quiet and focused vs very social as the extremes, then you got hit very mild
- tonyarkles 4y ago
  I think the punchline is that they can be "quiet and focused" when they take Methylphenidate and social/reckless/fun when they don't. That was the problem for me before I was diagnosed and medicated. I wanted so badly to be able to be quite and focused, but it was practically impossible to do it through will. Sometimes I would get lucky and something would catch my interest (hyperfocus), but most of the time I was all over the damned place.
  - Waterluvian 4y ago
    Right?! I take amphetamines to quiet down and focus. And it’s just the best, warmest feeling ever… being able to sit for literally hours and read or do work. Sometimes I weep, it’s so liberating. Like I honestly thought people who said they could read a book in a single day were just liars. But I did it once!!!
    - grhappl 4y ago
      Know what you mean, I was astounded when I took my first dose. It was like the usual relentless mind-noise had switched itself off, and I could just get on with stuff.
4y ago

tstrimple 4y ago

It can feel like a super power at times. But it's one you cannot control. When I was in my teens and early twenties my area of interest happened to align with something which would turn into a very lucrative career. Software development. I couldn't get enough of it. I soaked things up like a sponge and was able to internalize so much that has stuck with me. But once I "figured out" programming, the interest dropped to almost zero. I love solving problems and learning things and there is no way in hell I could participate in most software development teams because the vast majority of programming is little more than typing out previously solved problems. There is no mystery to a CRUD API endpoint. The only time I jump into code these days is to help out with tricky bugs. Diving into an unfamiliar code base to solve a problem others aren't able to checks all of those puzzle solving and learning boxes which gets my attention going again. I'm not sure about building a business with ADHD. I see that path as extremely difficult unless your super focus happens to align with what your building long enough to get to a point where you can make money off of it. That seems unlikely. Once you're running a successful business, I believe coping with ADHD would be significantly easier. A CEO can delegate the things they are worst at to focus on the thing they are best at and which deliver the most value. The vast majority of individual contributors don't have that option. ADHD keeps me on the move and has given me a very broad skill set and understanding of many different industries. I've worked in health care with medical devices to building interactive kiosks to writing device firmware to applying AI to livestock management to insurance and banking modernization. In that sense it's a super power. But I still cannot build myself a personal website or blog despite wanting to because that shit is really hard for me. This doesn't even touch on the damage ADHD can do to relationships. I had a very difficult time connecting with my children when they were babies and toddlers because, let's be honest, they are boring most of the time. This became significantly easier as they got older and we were able to start actually having conversations. There are also times where my inattentiveness gets to the point where I literally cannot pay attention to what my wife is saying. It's a struggle to try to separate my brain from what it's trying to pay attention to and redirect it to her. When I don't see people they basically stop existing. I have no relationship with my parents or siblings and almost no long term friendships because of this. It's extremely easy for me to get disconnected.

bpicolo 4y ago

jamestimmins 4y ago

I actually took a class he taught in college. Every Wednesday night we'd meet at the university club for dinner and he'd "teach". It was wildly entertaining, although I'm not sure how much I learned tbh. He did get in trouble with the school for buying us all booze once, which was pretty hilarious.