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onewheels suffer from a problem known as nosediving in which the board shuts off when it can't supply enough power to support the rider, as the board is self ba

by alden5 4y ago

onewheels suffer from a problem known as nosediving in which the board shuts off when it can't supply enough power to support the rider, as the board is self balancing this is a problem intrinsic to the board's form factor. The board works in a similar fashion to balancing something like an umbrella on your hand, as the rider leans forward it creates an imbalance that requires the board to accelerate in order to keep the rider upright. The only possible safety feature to prevent nosedives is to inform the rider that they're approaching the board's limits, this is done with "pushback" where the board elevates the nose making the rider uncomfortable, signaling that they should slow down. Newer boards are more aggressive with pushback, it's definitely a balancing act giving the user the most power from their board while also preventing them from nosediving, future motion faced significant backlash when their new flagship board implemented extremely strong pushback at a speed lower than a prior discontinued model

aksss 4y ago
Good summary. I would just add that "can't supply enough power" is a state the board can enter into either in lower battery levels or (more often) when a rider has put their center of mass too far forward, causing the board to work harder to stay under them, while also moving at a higher rate of speed or accelerating - the board can't give enough power to maintain this. Pushback is to be respected, but the user can also ignore it and carry on. It's literally the board telling you that you need to get ready to run if you don't stop, but many will just ignore and keep on keepin' on, often at speeds faster than they are capable of running. Watch this in action here: https://www.reddit.com/r/onewheel/comments/ywq655/the_scorpion_queen/ https://www.reddit.com/r/onewheel/comments/ywq655/the_scorpi... I've said before that Onewheels are the Lawn Darts of our generation, we're lucky to enjoy them before the nannies start taking our toys away. They are super fun though - so much fun.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- js2 4y ago
  When I was a teenager I rode my skateboard down a parking lot ramp when I realized I was going way too fast, was about to enter the street and the only way to bail was to jump off and run. It looked about like that video. I didn’t realize these one wheels have top speeds of 16-20 mph. That’s faster than most people can sprint. 16 mph is a 3:45 mile. 20 is a 3:00 mile. > we're lucky to enjoy them before the nannies start taking our toys away See also three wheelers: https://www.hotcars.com/this-is-why-the-3-wheeled-atv-was-banned-from-the-usa/ https://www.hotcars.com/this-is-why-the-3-wheeled-atv-was-ba... But I dunno, where do you draw the line? As a 50 year-old who makes a living typing I chose not to buy a table saw last year because I decided it was inherently a riskier tool that I ever wanted to use. I ended up with a track saw instead. I think that was a good decision but not sure it’s one I would have been wise enough to make in my younger years. Now I’m not advocating for banning table saws: my point is that Onewheel can put every warning and disclaimer in the world on their product and some people will still not appreciate the risks involved. That said, 4 deaths over 2 years doesn’t seem out of line with other products in the same category. I wonder if something else is going on to draw the CPSC’s ire.
  - psychlops 4y ago
    If only the CPSC had tested skateboards for speed wobbles, they would be banned.
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    > I didn’t realize these one wheels have top speeds of 16-20 mph. That’s faster than most people can sprint. 16 mph is a 3:45 mile. 20 is a 3:00 mile. Those numbers are somewhat relevant but shorter sprints are about 50% faster than a mile pace.
    - js2 4y ago
      16 mph is also a 14 second 100-meter dash. You have to be in decent shape to run that quickly and your legs already have to be in motion. 20 mph is an 11 second 100-meter dash. That’s fast enough to win races against all but trained athletes. FWIW, I’m a marathon runner with a 3:07 PR. I’ve done a lot of speed work. I don’t think I could run fast enough to keep up falling off a board in motion at 16 mph.
- ksbrooksjr 4y ago
  Apparently some users have attached smaller wheels to the front of the Onewheel that engage during a nosedive [1]. I wonder how effective these are at preventing injury. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/onewheel/comments/903wnj/diy_antinosedive_wheels/ https://old.reddit.com/r/onewheel/comments/903wnj/diy_antino...
  - skellera 4y ago
    It gives you another split second to recover. If you aren’t expecting it or just don’t have the body control for it, you’ll probably still go down.
    - MivLives 4y ago
      That split second could be all I need to jump for grass instead of pavement. I've seen people intentionally ride the nose so it's likely something that they should just integrate into the thing.
- sillysaurusx 4y ago
  Those comments are nuts. https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_queen/iwkang8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_... They’re mostly all like “Yeah OneWheels are cool but my buddy leaned too far forward once and now his jaw’s wired shut for 6 weeks” https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_queen/iwkfz8s/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_... Or “I saw a guy almost die on one of these” https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_queen/iwkoqnw/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_... Or “Yeah a bunch of my friends have broken their bones at our weekly OneWheel meetup, and OneWheels are universally recognized as a wheeling death trap if you’re not careful. But it’s totally worth it because, like, it’s fun!” https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_queen/iwl94e9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_... I think I’ll stick to quadcopters…
  - aksss 4y ago
    I have a broken nose and cracked ribs to show for years of snowboarding. Scars from wounds and stitches from years of MTB. Nothing but a bit of bruising from the OW. It probably helps that I’m middle aged, story would probably be very different if so had one in my teens or twenties. Nothing I’ve possessed before the OW has instilled the kind of giddy joy reminiscent of being ten years old that it brings. It’s insanely fun and delightful! That said, yes, half the posts on the OW sub and discord are people showing off injuries. The other half are older people admonishing everyone to pad up. I wear knees, elbows, wrists, and padded shorts, typically long clothes, either a skating helmet or full face depending on my plans. I practice running out, falling, hopping obstacles on the OW. Practice means pain, so it’s hard to convince yourself to do it, but it’s totally worth it. I’ve done some impressive subconscious recoveries. What everyone is saying here about shifting weight with hips rather than upper body, learning how to grind the nose and tail, keeping feet oriented to run, are all parts of good riding technique. There definitely is a learning curve to riding safely. I don’t think that warrants a recall though, or threats of one. Would have preferred the agency to voice it differently - warning about risks of injury to beginners - rather than the fear-mongering about phantom death traps.
- stevep98 4y ago
  I think I ran into this "can't supply enough power" state last week. I was coming to the end of my ride, battery was around 15%. I was trying to slow down for a light that was turning red. I just couldn't make it slow down, and ended up hanging a right turn at 8mph then continued to speed up until 19mph. (in the mode I ride in, it's supposed to be limited to 12mph). It was terrifying. I was actively trying my best to slow down the entire time, but the board was going fast. After 15 or so seconds of this I bailed and walked away with a bit of road rash. Totally different scenario from the CPSC complaint. But, yes, another way these machines are dangerous.
drcode 4y ago
As a onewheel owner, one feature I think needs to be eliminated from the device are the "digital shaping modules" that allow you to modify the behavior of the board via software. It should has only one mode, which is "do everything possible to make sure the user doesn't crash" I only had one fall on my onewheel with ~2 years of use, and that was when I was testing one of the "smooth ride" software modes and it therefore didn't move forward as quickly as I usually expected (because it was emphasizing "smooth" over "responsive") causing me to fall forward. There was absolutely no good reason for that fall to happen, I think.
s17n 4y ago
Pushback is extremely unintuitive, it should do pushforward instead.
- derrikcurran 4y ago
  I don't think that would work, because pitching the board forward would require the wheel to accelerate to keep you upright. Also, what if it needs to warn you while you're actively accelerating (with the board already pitched forward)?
- aksss 4y ago
  It has a pushforward mode - we just refer to it as nosediving. It's very intuitive, and a great trainer. Instills respect very quickly.
- frankus 4y ago
  It also seems like they could do haptics, i.e. superimpose an audio-frequency wave on the motor current. Similar to the steering feedback you get with a lane departure warning system. But then again it might be difficult/impossible to make it distinguishable from e.g. rough pavement.
  - dghlsakjg 4y ago
    An 80db piezo buzzer is $.13 and can operate on logic levels. No need to get fancy
    - becho 4y ago
      Deaf people exist.
      - frankus 4y ago
        It can also be hard to hear through e.g. a full-face helmet, or if you're (perhaps unwisely) wearing headphones.
  - closetohome 4y ago
pram 4y ago
It happens at low speeds too! I hit a pothole on my bike and flew off the front and had a concussion/sternum fracture, and I was going like >5mph. I couldn’t believe it. It has made me permanently scared of electric bikes. (yes I was wearing a helmet thankfully or I might actually be dead)
- bombcar 4y ago
  I've read somewhere that a majority of the "damage" from a bike accident is actually the "head to concrete" fall distance, and that speed often isn't a major factor.
- partdavid 4y ago
  Why electric bikes specifically?
  - sleepybrett 4y ago
    this doesn't seem like an 'electric bike' problem, more like a 'bike' problem. Hit the same pothole on a non-electric bike, what's the difference. He says he was going ~5mph which is not that fast...
furyofantares 4y ago
Mine just turns off even on flat ground when fully charged and ejects me forward. Started happening after about a week of use, just as I was getting comfortable, but it's just completely unusable. Maybe I'm a bit too big, or riding a bit too far forward or something, I don't know, but I feel a bit vindicated now. What a waste of money, I'm glad I wasn't injured worse than just some scrapes and bruises.
alana314 4y ago
Pushback on my XR is extremely subtle. The GTs have audio pushback but it's quiet. The app on my phone and watch tell me if I'm low on battery or have wheelslip, but I wish there was just a simple pushback notification. It would be so easy.
slt2021 4y ago
FutureMotion must equip all onewheels with safety wheels on both sides. Also known as Fangs bumper wheels. This must come standard from factory, just as safety belts come with car. physics is no excuse for lousy engineering from FutureMotion and complete disregard of life threatening diving condition!
- skellera 4y ago
  No way on the tail. That’s the best way to emergency stop. I can’t argue that fangs on the front could be safer but most riders I see would probably not recover a nose dive with them.
  - slt2021 4y ago
    1. firmware can be upgraded to account for presence of fangs, for example replace pushback mechanism with gradual diving (soft landing on fangs) instead of abrupt nosedive 2. re emergency stop - agree with you, I am okay if fangs are placed only on the front
dawnerd 4y ago
Isn't this similar to what ultimately shut Segway down? People were falling nose first on those too.
wjamesg 4y ago
I have a OneWheel and this is an excellent summary
MivLives 4y ago
Glad the newer ones are more aggressive. I've pushed an XR to 24 on flat and at that point you're just using your own balance and praying nothing is in the road. This whole nosedive thing where "Is this Future Motion Fault or someone idiot trying to ride faster then allowed" is the big thing preventing a recall I suspect.

by alden5 4y ago

aksss 4y ago

Good summary. I would just add that "can't supply enough power" is a state the board can enter into either in lower battery levels or (more often) when a rider has put their center of mass too far forward, causing the board to work harder to stay under them, while also moving at a higher rate of speed or accelerating - the board can't give enough power to maintain this. Pushback is to be respected, but the user can also ignore it and carry on. It's literally the board telling you that you need to get ready to run if you don't stop, but many will just ignore and keep on keepin' on, often at speeds faster than they are capable of running. Watch this in action here: https://www.reddit.com/r/onewheel/comments/ywq655/the_scorpion_queen/ https://www.reddit.com/r/onewheel/comments/ywq655/the_scorpi... I've said before that Onewheels are the Lawn Darts of our generation, we're lucky to enjoy them before the nannies start taking our toys away. They are super fun though - so much fun.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
js2 4y ago
When I was a teenager I rode my skateboard down a parking lot ramp when I realized I was going way too fast, was about to enter the street and the only way to bail was to jump off and run. It looked about like that video. I didn’t realize these one wheels have top speeds of 16-20 mph. That’s faster than most people can sprint. 16 mph is a 3:45 mile. 20 is a 3:00 mile. > we're lucky to enjoy them before the nannies start taking our toys away See also three wheelers: https://www.hotcars.com/this-is-why-the-3-wheeled-atv-was-banned-from-the-usa/ https://www.hotcars.com/this-is-why-the-3-wheeled-atv-was-ba... But I dunno, where do you draw the line? As a 50 year-old who makes a living typing I chose not to buy a table saw last year because I decided it was inherently a riskier tool that I ever wanted to use. I ended up with a track saw instead. I think that was a good decision but not sure it’s one I would have been wise enough to make in my younger years. Now I’m not advocating for banning table saws: my point is that Onewheel can put every warning and disclaimer in the world on their product and some people will still not appreciate the risks involved. That said, 4 deaths over 2 years doesn’t seem out of line with other products in the same category. I wonder if something else is going on to draw the CPSC’s ire.
- psychlops 4y ago
  If only the CPSC had tested skateboards for speed wobbles, they would be banned.
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  > I didn’t realize these one wheels have top speeds of 16-20 mph. That’s faster than most people can sprint. 16 mph is a 3:45 mile. 20 is a 3:00 mile. Those numbers are somewhat relevant but shorter sprints are about 50% faster than a mile pace.
  - js2 4y ago
    16 mph is also a 14 second 100-meter dash. You have to be in decent shape to run that quickly and your legs already have to be in motion. 20 mph is an 11 second 100-meter dash. That’s fast enough to win races against all but trained athletes. FWIW, I’m a marathon runner with a 3:07 PR. I’ve done a lot of speed work. I don’t think I could run fast enough to keep up falling off a board in motion at 16 mph.
ksbrooksjr 4y ago
Apparently some users have attached smaller wheels to the front of the Onewheel that engage during a nosedive [1]. I wonder how effective these are at preventing injury. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/onewheel/comments/903wnj/diy_antinosedive_wheels/ https://old.reddit.com/r/onewheel/comments/903wnj/diy_antino...
- skellera 4y ago
  It gives you another split second to recover. If you aren’t expecting it or just don’t have the body control for it, you’ll probably still go down.
  - MivLives 4y ago
    That split second could be all I need to jump for grass instead of pavement. I've seen people intentionally ride the nose so it's likely something that they should just integrate into the thing.
sillysaurusx 4y ago
Those comments are nuts. https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_queen/iwkang8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_... They’re mostly all like “Yeah OneWheels are cool but my buddy leaned too far forward once and now his jaw’s wired shut for 6 weeks” https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_queen/iwkfz8s/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_... Or “I saw a guy almost die on one of these” https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_queen/iwkoqnw/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_... Or “Yeah a bunch of my friends have broken their bones at our weekly OneWheel meetup, and OneWheels are universally recognized as a wheeling death trap if you’re not careful. But it’s totally worth it because, like, it’s fun!” https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_queen/iwl94e9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/ywkg0y/the_scorpion_... I think I’ll stick to quadcopters…
- aksss 4y ago
  I have a broken nose and cracked ribs to show for years of snowboarding. Scars from wounds and stitches from years of MTB. Nothing but a bit of bruising from the OW. It probably helps that I’m middle aged, story would probably be very different if so had one in my teens or twenties. Nothing I’ve possessed before the OW has instilled the kind of giddy joy reminiscent of being ten years old that it brings. It’s insanely fun and delightful! That said, yes, half the posts on the OW sub and discord are people showing off injuries. The other half are older people admonishing everyone to pad up. I wear knees, elbows, wrists, and padded shorts, typically long clothes, either a skating helmet or full face depending on my plans. I practice running out, falling, hopping obstacles on the OW. Practice means pain, so it’s hard to convince yourself to do it, but it’s totally worth it. I’ve done some impressive subconscious recoveries. What everyone is saying here about shifting weight with hips rather than upper body, learning how to grind the nose and tail, keeping feet oriented to run, are all parts of good riding technique. There definitely is a learning curve to riding safely. I don’t think that warrants a recall though, or threats of one. Would have preferred the agency to voice it differently - warning about risks of injury to beginners - rather than the fear-mongering about phantom death traps.
stevep98 4y ago
I think I ran into this "can't supply enough power" state last week. I was coming to the end of my ride, battery was around 15%. I was trying to slow down for a light that was turning red. I just couldn't make it slow down, and ended up hanging a right turn at 8mph then continued to speed up until 19mph. (in the mode I ride in, it's supposed to be limited to 12mph). It was terrifying. I was actively trying my best to slow down the entire time, but the board was going fast. After 15 or so seconds of this I bailed and walked away with a bit of road rash. Totally different scenario from the CPSC complaint. But, yes, another way these machines are dangerous.

drcode 4y ago

As a onewheel owner, one feature I think needs to be eliminated from the device are the "digital shaping modules" that allow you to modify the behavior of the board via software. It should has only one mode, which is "do everything possible to make sure the user doesn't crash" I only had one fall on my onewheel with ~2 years of use, and that was when I was testing one of the "smooth ride" software modes and it therefore didn't move forward as quickly as I usually expected (because it was emphasizing "smooth" over "responsive") causing me to fall forward. There was absolutely no good reason for that fall to happen, I think.

s17n 4y ago

Pushback is extremely unintuitive, it should do pushforward instead.

derrikcurran 4y ago
I don't think that would work, because pitching the board forward would require the wheel to accelerate to keep you upright. Also, what if it needs to warn you while you're actively accelerating (with the board already pitched forward)?
aksss 4y ago
It has a pushforward mode - we just refer to it as nosediving. It's very intuitive, and a great trainer. Instills respect very quickly.
frankus 4y ago
It also seems like they could do haptics, i.e. superimpose an audio-frequency wave on the motor current. Similar to the steering feedback you get with a lane departure warning system. But then again it might be difficult/impossible to make it distinguishable from e.g. rough pavement.
- dghlsakjg 4y ago
  An 80db piezo buzzer is $.13 and can operate on logic levels. No need to get fancy
  - becho 4y ago
    Deaf people exist.
    - frankus 4y ago
      It can also be hard to hear through e.g. a full-face helmet, or if you're (perhaps unwisely) wearing headphones.
- closetohome 4y ago

pram 4y ago

It happens at low speeds too! I hit a pothole on my bike and flew off the front and had a concussion/sternum fracture, and I was going like >5mph. I couldn’t believe it. It has made me permanently scared of electric bikes. (yes I was wearing a helmet thankfully or I might actually be dead)

bombcar 4y ago
I've read somewhere that a majority of the "damage" from a bike accident is actually the "head to concrete" fall distance, and that speed often isn't a major factor.
partdavid 4y ago
Why electric bikes specifically?
- sleepybrett 4y ago
  this doesn't seem like an 'electric bike' problem, more like a 'bike' problem. Hit the same pothole on a non-electric bike, what's the difference. He says he was going ~5mph which is not that fast...

furyofantares 4y ago

Mine just turns off even on flat ground when fully charged and ejects me forward. Started happening after about a week of use, just as I was getting comfortable, but it's just completely unusable. Maybe I'm a bit too big, or riding a bit too far forward or something, I don't know, but I feel a bit vindicated now. What a waste of money, I'm glad I wasn't injured worse than just some scrapes and bruises.

alana314 4y ago

Pushback on my XR is extremely subtle. The GTs have audio pushback but it's quiet. The app on my phone and watch tell me if I'm low on battery or have wheelslip, but I wish there was just a simple pushback notification. It would be so easy.

slt2021 4y ago

FutureMotion must equip all onewheels with safety wheels on both sides. Also known as Fangs bumper wheels. This must come standard from factory, just as safety belts come with car. physics is no excuse for lousy engineering from FutureMotion and complete disregard of life threatening diving condition!

skellera 4y ago
No way on the tail. That’s the best way to emergency stop. I can’t argue that fangs on the front could be safer but most riders I see would probably not recover a nose dive with them.
- slt2021 4y ago
  1. firmware can be upgraded to account for presence of fangs, for example replace pushback mechanism with gradual diving (soft landing on fangs) instead of abrupt nosedive 2. re emergency stop - agree with you, I am okay if fangs are placed only on the front

dawnerd 4y ago

Isn't this similar to what ultimately shut Segway down? People were falling nose first on those too.

wjamesg 4y ago

I have a OneWheel and this is an excellent summary

MivLives 4y ago

Glad the newer ones are more aggressive. I've pushed an XR to 24 on flat and at that point you're just using your own balance and praying nothing is in the road. This whole nosedive thing where "Is this Future Motion Fault or someone idiot trying to ride faster then allowed" is the big thing preventing a recall I suspect.