5 ms·

There will always be people who overreact and call the police for inappropriate reasons. That isn't the problem. The problem is that the police, and then the DA

by pavon 4y ago

There will always be people who overreact and call the police for inappropriate reasons. That isn't the problem. The problem is that the police, and then the DA, chose to make this a criminal matter. Either of them could and should have dismissed the issue after verifying that the child was not being put into a harmful environment.

DwnVoteHoneyPot 4y ago
Don't forget about the child safety services/social workers - they should have to be reasonable too.
- BitwiseFool 4y ago
  I suspect child services / social workers are punished far more severely for false negatives than false positives. I think it is safe to say the outrage of failing to save a child would outweigh the embarrassment of a false positive such as this. I could easily see major news outlets and local politicians raising hell for failing to stop abuse but raising far less hell for something like this.
  - kneebonian 4y ago
    I have had multiple experiences with multiple CPS departments through multiple friends and family members. CPS hardly ever does anything and are largely useless. The only time they did anything was when the police opened up a second investigation because of the problems, and they told them "Don't talk to CPS talk to the cops and have them talk to CPS". Assume the default for these kinds of agencies is false negatives.
- dariusj18 4y ago
  No one wants to be the weak link that gets their name blasted in newspapers when a kid gets harmed. Not that it would really be their fault, but the incentives are obvious to "play it safe".
  - nickthegreek 4y ago
    I feel like "playing it safe" could have been accomplished with the officers just dropping the kid back off back home. I don't see why it would escalate to pressing charges.
    - dariusj18 4y ago
      2 months later when something happens to the kid this entire thing will get replayed in the media and everyone that didn't do anything will be made out to be a villain.
- RajT88 4y ago
  My armchair analysis here is that behaving in a reasonable fashion would not result in being able to obtain and exercise more power. The desire for more power, and thus funding, and thus better career aspirations is as relevant to CPS as it is the local PD. Of all the spilled ink on the topic of how this stuff happens, there seems to be a culture of, "We lock up the bad guys and throw away the key". It doesn't take much to put you into the "Bad Guy" territory, and once you're there, you're not a person, a mother, a son or spouse with a life all your own. You're a threat to the societal order (no longer a human being), and deserve the full weight of punishment regardless of its implications. The police departments which manage to actually take high crime areas, and turn them around into lower crime areas despite widespread poverty have undertaken a paradigm shift from, "Putting away bad guys" to "Building a community". Getting to know the community, its problems, its major players and learning what their struggles are and trying to find a way to integrate into solving those problems, using law enforcement as a tool and not its own pursuit.
mlindner 4y ago
Correct! There's a lot of crazy people out in the world who'll call the cops for all manner of things. The correct response would have been to ignore the call following a couple questions by the 911 operator. "Is the child in danger in any way?" the response would be "No." and then hang up on them.
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  ""Is the child in danger in any way?" the response would be "No." and then hang up on them." After informing them, that unlike childs walking outside, abuse of 911 is a real crime.
- 1123581321 4y ago
  The problem is the person calling will lie or exaggerate instead of saying no. If questioned later, they can fall back on claiming they were just trying to help and avoid getting in trouble. Angry or nosy neighbors, police and social services can get each other caught up in a cycle of escalation that lasts years for some unfortunate families.
  - CogitoCogito 4y ago
    In that case the police should investigate and then rightfully conclude there is no danger and leave the child alone to continue walking in the street. After that they should arrest the caller for exaggerating (i.e. lying) regardless of their claimed intentions. This assume some sort of rationality in our legal bureaucracy of course. Unfortunately that doesn’t seem to exist.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    > The problem is the person calling will lie or exaggerate instead of saying no. The person calling is likely not "lying" about anything. If they believe it is dangerous for a kid to walk in the street, then the answer is a truthful "yes". These people simply have different worldviews.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
CodeMage 4y ago
> There will always be people who overreact and call the police for inappropriate reasons. That isn't the problem. It's not the problem, but it is a problem. There's no reason we shouldn't try to work on both. > The problem is that the police, and then the DA, chose to make this a criminal matter. Either of them could and should have dismissed the issue after verifying that the child was not being put into a harmful environment. Yes, but what's their incentive to do so? The more I look at the society in this country, the more I see that the incentives for LEOs are perfectly aligned with corruption and abuse of power.
- giantg2 4y ago
  The check and balance part isn't working. Any decent judge should see this lacks probable cause. But judges are not impartial and instead side with the DA/police by default.
  - noasaservice 4y ago
    > But judges are not impartial and instead side with the DA/police by default. Anybody, and I do mean ANYBODY, who has been to traffic court knows the courts are the extension of the cops. Worse yet, in criminal court, judges tell the jury that "being a cop doesnt give any more or less truthfulness or power on their words". The judges work with with cops and prosecution on a daily basis. They work against you extremely rarely.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > any decent judge should see this lacks probable cause You're shoehorning complaints about the judiciary into a case which never made it to a judge.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      She paid bail. Bail is set by a judge. Plus, felony charges generally require a hearing before the trial.
  - petsfed 4y ago
P_I_Staker 4y ago
Part of it is the procedural philosophy on crime that simultaneously makes crimes easy to prosecute, and demands the police act on any letter-of-the-law violation, without thinking. You can get phony DUIs now too. How many people are on some pharmaceutical? Well if so, you’re automatically guilty, even if your doctors tells you that you can drive, and must take the meds.

by pavon 4y ago

DwnVoteHoneyPot 4y ago

Don't forget about the child safety services/social workers - they should have to be reasonable too.

BitwiseFool 4y ago
I suspect child services / social workers are punished far more severely for false negatives than false positives. I think it is safe to say the outrage of failing to save a child would outweigh the embarrassment of a false positive such as this. I could easily see major news outlets and local politicians raising hell for failing to stop abuse but raising far less hell for something like this.
- kneebonian 4y ago
  I have had multiple experiences with multiple CPS departments through multiple friends and family members. CPS hardly ever does anything and are largely useless. The only time they did anything was when the police opened up a second investigation because of the problems, and they told them "Don't talk to CPS talk to the cops and have them talk to CPS". Assume the default for these kinds of agencies is false negatives.
dariusj18 4y ago
No one wants to be the weak link that gets their name blasted in newspapers when a kid gets harmed. Not that it would really be their fault, but the incentives are obvious to "play it safe".
- nickthegreek 4y ago
  I feel like "playing it safe" could have been accomplished with the officers just dropping the kid back off back home. I don't see why it would escalate to pressing charges.
  - dariusj18 4y ago
    2 months later when something happens to the kid this entire thing will get replayed in the media and everyone that didn't do anything will be made out to be a villain.
RajT88 4y ago
My armchair analysis here is that behaving in a reasonable fashion would not result in being able to obtain and exercise more power. The desire for more power, and thus funding, and thus better career aspirations is as relevant to CPS as it is the local PD. Of all the spilled ink on the topic of how this stuff happens, there seems to be a culture of, "We lock up the bad guys and throw away the key". It doesn't take much to put you into the "Bad Guy" territory, and once you're there, you're not a person, a mother, a son or spouse with a life all your own. You're a threat to the societal order (no longer a human being), and deserve the full weight of punishment regardless of its implications. The police departments which manage to actually take high crime areas, and turn them around into lower crime areas despite widespread poverty have undertaken a paradigm shift from, "Putting away bad guys" to "Building a community". Getting to know the community, its problems, its major players and learning what their struggles are and trying to find a way to integrate into solving those problems, using law enforcement as a tool and not its own pursuit.

mlindner 4y ago

Correct! There's a lot of crazy people out in the world who'll call the cops for all manner of things. The correct response would have been to ignore the call following a couple questions by the 911 operator. "Is the child in danger in any way?" the response would be "No." and then hang up on them.

hutzlibu 4y ago
""Is the child in danger in any way?" the response would be "No." and then hang up on them." After informing them, that unlike childs walking outside, abuse of 911 is a real crime.
1123581321 4y ago
The problem is the person calling will lie or exaggerate instead of saying no. If questioned later, they can fall back on claiming they were just trying to help and avoid getting in trouble. Angry or nosy neighbors, police and social services can get each other caught up in a cycle of escalation that lasts years for some unfortunate families.
- CogitoCogito 4y ago
  In that case the police should investigate and then rightfully conclude there is no danger and leave the child alone to continue walking in the street. After that they should arrest the caller for exaggerating (i.e. lying) regardless of their claimed intentions. This assume some sort of rationality in our legal bureaucracy of course. Unfortunately that doesn’t seem to exist.
- kube-system 4y ago
  > The problem is the person calling will lie or exaggerate instead of saying no. The person calling is likely not "lying" about anything. If they believe it is dangerous for a kid to walk in the street, then the answer is a truthful "yes". These people simply have different worldviews.
  - pessimizer 4y ago

CodeMage 4y ago

> There will always be people who overreact and call the police for inappropriate reasons. That isn't the problem. It's not the problem, but it is a problem. There's no reason we shouldn't try to work on both. > The problem is that the police, and then the DA, chose to make this a criminal matter. Either of them could and should have dismissed the issue after verifying that the child was not being put into a harmful environment. Yes, but what's their incentive to do so? The more I look at the society in this country, the more I see that the incentives for LEOs are perfectly aligned with corruption and abuse of power.

giantg2 4y ago
The check and balance part isn't working. Any decent judge should see this lacks probable cause. But judges are not impartial and instead side with the DA/police by default.
- noasaservice 4y ago
  > But judges are not impartial and instead side with the DA/police by default. Anybody, and I do mean ANYBODY, who has been to traffic court knows the courts are the extension of the cops. Worse yet, in criminal court, judges tell the jury that "being a cop doesnt give any more or less truthfulness or power on their words". The judges work with with cops and prosecution on a daily basis. They work against you extremely rarely.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > any decent judge should see this lacks probable cause You're shoehorning complaints about the judiciary into a case which never made it to a judge.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    She paid bail. Bail is set by a judge. Plus, felony charges generally require a hearing before the trial.
- petsfed 4y ago

P_I_Staker 4y ago

Part of it is the procedural philosophy on crime that simultaneously makes crimes easy to prosecute, and demands the police act on any letter-of-the-law violation, without thinking. You can get phony DUIs now too. How many people are on some pharmaceutical? Well if so, you’re automatically guilty, even if your doctors tells you that you can drive, and must take the meds.