5 ms·

It's the part where he says employees will need to be "extremely hardcore" and "work long hours at high intensity" with "only exceptional performance constituti

It's the part where he says employees will need to be "extremely hardcore" and "work long hours at high intensity" with "only exceptional performance constituting a passing grade."

adamrezich 4y ago
what exactly is wrong with this? why have we been programmed to believe that putting hard work into making something great is a bad thing? this was not the case a few short years ago. again: what the fuck happened?
- oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
  It's not a case of "hard work is bad". It's a case of forcing your employees to work an unhealthy number of hours, on pain of sacking, should be illegal. It certainly would be in the EU, where an employer must ensure staff do not work over 48 hours/week on average.
- aschearer 4y ago
  First, I humbly recommend you stop accusing others of being "programmed" in negative ways. It's presumptuious and makes me wonder if you're asking in good faith. Second, I would not end comments with "what the fuck happened" as it sounds condescending, as if you're on the "good side" looking down on the others and shaking your head. With that out of the way, I think hard work is great. Making something cool is what gets me up and to work every day. What I think isn't great is being commanded to be "hardcore" and work at "high intensity for long hours." To me, that implies having to work for more than a typical work day and with little slack for any hiccups. Add to that the expectation that anything less than "exceptional performance" is a failing grade. Taken together it strikes me as a recipe for burnout and anxiety. At a minimum I don't see how it's possible to have any sort of work life balance in that arrangement. Jobs with that level of intensity are fine if the rewards are there. That's been my life for a while, working on an indie game. I don't think that's the case for Twitter. I also think it's a raw deal for a boss to walk in one day and completely flip the expectations. Of course fairness has nothing to do with it, it's Elon's company. Still, that doesn't maen he's free from criticism.
  - joegahona 4y ago
    I have no problems with this email but many problems with his behavior. The ultimate authoritarian is clashing with what was a bloated staff that managed a product allegedly losing $4 million per day. There needs to be drastic changes. He is being extremely transparent that their culture and previous ways of working are changing and offering a generous package to people if they don't like what they hear. I agree with you that it's a recipe for burnout and anxiety and turnover, which has plagued his other companies. Many things can be true simultaneously. Many of the Elon criticisms are valid: Cruel and puerile behavior on Twitter, shockingly bad product decisions that any associate PM would avoid. Many of the criticisms are unclear: dismantling of teams like "Responsible AI," which sounds like a navel-gazing college course, not an organization in a company. Many of the criticisms are stupid: Cutting free meals that nobody was eating, implementing return-to-office.
  - adamrezich 4y ago
    > First, I humbly recommend you stop accusing others of being "programmed" in negative ways. It's presumptuious and makes me wonder if you're asking in good faith. Second, I would not end comments with "what the fuck happened" as it sounds condescending, as if you're on the "good side" looking down on the others and shaking your head. I'm observing a noticeable societal shift that I have directly experienced occurring within my lifetime, and I have a hard time believing that this shift is wholly organic. like I said elsewhere in the thread, this demoralization and disintegration of innately self-evident core values like "working hard to make a good thing good is good" is exactly how I would poison the well of an adversarial nation that I wanted to destabilize at the foundational level. it's quite nice to see some pushback against this. > What I think isn't great is being commanded to be "hardcore" and work at "high intensity for long hours." > Jobs with that level of intensity are fine if the rewards are there. That's been my life for a while, working on an indie game. I don't think that's the case for Twitter. I'm confused. you're an indie game developer, and I don't know the details of your team and project, but that entire field is basically built on hard work, long hours, high-intensity effort, and yet you find it fulfilling, despite the great personal risk usually associated, especially being indie. so why do you think it's impossible that someone else would find a job of this level of intensity but cranked up a notch, but compensated for with a large salary and lavish benefits, to be a compelling job prospect? like I'm with you, that proposition doesn't sound like a great personal fit for me, either—but why is it unthinkable that anyone would find the job compelling? you know as well as I do that, on some level, the entire video game development industry "preys on" developers' love of the medium and feeling of satisfaction caused by creating something cool after oftentimes plural years of development before having a concrete product to show for all the work you put into it. why is that OK for the video game industry, but not for social media companies? > I also think it's a raw deal for a boss to walk in one day and completely flip the expectations. I can see this, but also, how long was the Musk buyout deal in the works? how many months? of course, all the while, almost literally everyone on HN told themselves and everyone else, over and over again in comments threads, the deal will never happen, there's no way it'll go through, ahaha look at this new roadblock that came up, Elon will never get past this one! (seriously, go back in the archives and take a look at some of those threads, the self-assured self-righteous agreement that the deal would never happen is pretty crazy to look back on now.) any Twitter employee who was ideologically opposed to Elon Musk had plenty of time to look for another job in the case that he actually completed the buyout. of course I'm sympathetic to anyone suddenly losing their job, to some extent, but this sympathy is balanced out somewhat by vindication at seeing bloated "tech companies" finally getting some fat trimmed such that someone who works at a company like Twitter—making much more money than I do at my job—actually has to work hard to earn the paycheck and benefits they enjoy.
- cmh89 4y ago
  >again: what the fuck happened? A global pandemic that empowered workers to advocate for themselves? There is a difference between 'hard work' and working more than 40 hours a week.
- avl999 4y ago
  If you are willing to work significantly over normal work hours, for market value pay for a company with no greater mission beyond selling ads so that Elon can service the interest on his debt then by all means go for it. That is literally cuckold behavior but some people are into that so if that works for you good for you. I know my value and won't work in that type of environment.
  - adamrezich 4y ago
    interesting to see "cuckold" used denigratingly on this website—I thought that was taboo in current year, especially here
    - avl999 4y ago
      I didn't want to use that word but that's the only thing that comes to mind describing what you are saying. Why in the world would you find it acceptable to work at a place where the baseline is extreme hours and where extreme hours are required for just an acceptable performance review if you have other options? I have worked extreme hours in many jobs but that has always been because either it was an exceptional situation or I was doing it of my own accord. Other than those two situations the only other reason I would do it is either: 1 I am working at a startup (preferably it's my own or I own a lot of equity) 2 I needed the job that badly 3 There was some "higher mission" associated with the work (eg manned space travel to mars, rushing to find a vaccine) 2 doesn't apply to twitter engineers and 3 certainly doesn't apply since twitter whose "higher mission" is selling ads.
- dekhn 4y ago
  There's a big difference between hard work- of which I have done plenty- and completely sacrificing yourself to a role. What Musk is signalling with his language is abusive and unnecessary to achieve any reasonable goal.

It's the part where he says employees will need to be "extremely hardcore" and "work long hours at high intensity" with "only exceptional performance constituting a passing grade."

adamrezich 4y ago

what exactly is wrong with this? why have we been programmed to believe that putting hard work into making something great is a bad thing? this was not the case a few short years ago. again: what the fuck happened?

oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
It's not a case of "hard work is bad". It's a case of forcing your employees to work an unhealthy number of hours, on pain of sacking, should be illegal. It certainly would be in the EU, where an employer must ensure staff do not work over 48 hours/week on average.
aschearer 4y ago
First, I humbly recommend you stop accusing others of being "programmed" in negative ways. It's presumptuious and makes me wonder if you're asking in good faith. Second, I would not end comments with "what the fuck happened" as it sounds condescending, as if you're on the "good side" looking down on the others and shaking your head. With that out of the way, I think hard work is great. Making something cool is what gets me up and to work every day. What I think isn't great is being commanded to be "hardcore" and work at "high intensity for long hours." To me, that implies having to work for more than a typical work day and with little slack for any hiccups. Add to that the expectation that anything less than "exceptional performance" is a failing grade. Taken together it strikes me as a recipe for burnout and anxiety. At a minimum I don't see how it's possible to have any sort of work life balance in that arrangement. Jobs with that level of intensity are fine if the rewards are there. That's been my life for a while, working on an indie game. I don't think that's the case for Twitter. I also think it's a raw deal for a boss to walk in one day and completely flip the expectations. Of course fairness has nothing to do with it, it's Elon's company. Still, that doesn't maen he's free from criticism.
- joegahona 4y ago
  I have no problems with this email but many problems with his behavior. The ultimate authoritarian is clashing with what was a bloated staff that managed a product allegedly losing $4 million per day. There needs to be drastic changes. He is being extremely transparent that their culture and previous ways of working are changing and offering a generous package to people if they don't like what they hear. I agree with you that it's a recipe for burnout and anxiety and turnover, which has plagued his other companies. Many things can be true simultaneously. Many of the Elon criticisms are valid: Cruel and puerile behavior on Twitter, shockingly bad product decisions that any associate PM would avoid. Many of the criticisms are unclear: dismantling of teams like "Responsible AI," which sounds like a navel-gazing college course, not an organization in a company. Many of the criticisms are stupid: Cutting free meals that nobody was eating, implementing return-to-office.
- adamrezich 4y ago
  > First, I humbly recommend you stop accusing others of being "programmed" in negative ways. It's presumptuious and makes me wonder if you're asking in good faith. Second, I would not end comments with "what the fuck happened" as it sounds condescending, as if you're on the "good side" looking down on the others and shaking your head. I'm observing a noticeable societal shift that I have directly experienced occurring within my lifetime, and I have a hard time believing that this shift is wholly organic. like I said elsewhere in the thread, this demoralization and disintegration of innately self-evident core values like "working hard to make a good thing good is good" is exactly how I would poison the well of an adversarial nation that I wanted to destabilize at the foundational level. it's quite nice to see some pushback against this. > What I think isn't great is being commanded to be "hardcore" and work at "high intensity for long hours." > Jobs with that level of intensity are fine if the rewards are there. That's been my life for a while, working on an indie game. I don't think that's the case for Twitter. I'm confused. you're an indie game developer, and I don't know the details of your team and project, but that entire field is basically built on hard work, long hours, high-intensity effort, and yet you find it fulfilling, despite the great personal risk usually associated, especially being indie. so why do you think it's impossible that someone else would find a job of this level of intensity but cranked up a notch, but compensated for with a large salary and lavish benefits, to be a compelling job prospect? like I'm with you, that proposition doesn't sound like a great personal fit for me, either—but why is it unthinkable that anyone would find the job compelling? you know as well as I do that, on some level, the entire video game development industry "preys on" developers' love of the medium and feeling of satisfaction caused by creating something cool after oftentimes plural years of development before having a concrete product to show for all the work you put into it. why is that OK for the video game industry, but not for social media companies? > I also think it's a raw deal for a boss to walk in one day and completely flip the expectations. I can see this, but also, how long was the Musk buyout deal in the works? how many months? of course, all the while, almost literally everyone on HN told themselves and everyone else, over and over again in comments threads, the deal will never happen, there's no way it'll go through, ahaha look at this new roadblock that came up, Elon will never get past this one! (seriously, go back in the archives and take a look at some of those threads, the self-assured self-righteous agreement that the deal would never happen is pretty crazy to look back on now.) any Twitter employee who was ideologically opposed to Elon Musk had plenty of time to look for another job in the case that he actually completed the buyout. of course I'm sympathetic to anyone suddenly losing their job, to some extent, but this sympathy is balanced out somewhat by vindication at seeing bloated "tech companies" finally getting some fat trimmed such that someone who works at a company like Twitter—making much more money than I do at my job—actually has to work hard to earn the paycheck and benefits they enjoy.
cmh89 4y ago
>again: what the fuck happened? A global pandemic that empowered workers to advocate for themselves? There is a difference between 'hard work' and working more than 40 hours a week.
avl999 4y ago
If you are willing to work significantly over normal work hours, for market value pay for a company with no greater mission beyond selling ads so that Elon can service the interest on his debt then by all means go for it. That is literally cuckold behavior but some people are into that so if that works for you good for you. I know my value and won't work in that type of environment.
- adamrezich 4y ago
  interesting to see "cuckold" used denigratingly on this website—I thought that was taboo in current year, especially here
  - avl999 4y ago
    I didn't want to use that word but that's the only thing that comes to mind describing what you are saying. Why in the world would you find it acceptable to work at a place where the baseline is extreme hours and where extreme hours are required for just an acceptable performance review if you have other options? I have worked extreme hours in many jobs but that has always been because either it was an exceptional situation or I was doing it of my own accord. Other than those two situations the only other reason I would do it is either: 1 I am working at a startup (preferably it's my own or I own a lot of equity) 2 I needed the job that badly 3 There was some "higher mission" associated with the work (eg manned space travel to mars, rushing to find a vaccine) 2 doesn't apply to twitter engineers and 3 certainly doesn't apply since twitter whose "higher mission" is selling ads.
dekhn 4y ago
There's a big difference between hard work- of which I have done plenty- and completely sacrificing yourself to a role. What Musk is signalling with his language is abusive and unnecessary to achieve any reasonable goal.