5 ms·

Beats macOS ...at what? Serious, not facetious, question. The only answer I can think of is "running on non-Apple hardware"

by rnd0 4y ago

goosedragons 4y ago
Being usable out of the box? With KDE I don't need to go find a 3rd party app for decent window snapping, I don't need a 3rd party app to put files on my Android phone over USB, I don't need a 3rd party app to have the trackpad and scroll wheel mouse directions be "natural" and "unnatural" at the same time, I don't need a 3rd party app to be able to use the volume buttons to change the volume level of a sound device connected by HDMI or Display port, I don't need a 3rd party package manager to get the software I actually want to use, I don't need to give my terminal permission to display my fucking documents folder, I don't need to give every 3rd app I install special accessibility privileges to be able to it's damn job, I don't need to do things like manually copy over my R binary so I can use a debugger attached to it, etc.
- beanjuice 4y ago
  These are all very specific complaints. By the numbers, does KDE answer the question "how do I interact with a school/volunteer/work .docx/.ppt/.xlsx file without likely breaking it?
  - goosedragons 4y ago
    That's a pretty specific complaint. You can use the web version of Office. You can install Office under Wine. I personally have Office 2010 installed on Linux. It works.
    - NayamAmarshe 4y ago
      OnlyOffice works great too.
    - agloeregrets 4y ago
      lol I love how the specific complaint is what 99% of businesses do in practice while the OP post complains about coping an R binary.
- vogon_laureate 4y ago
  None of what you describe here makes Mac "unusable". If your idea of "usability" is not needing to ever install extra software on a machine because it perfectly suits your particular niche set of demands for said "usability", then you are subscribing to an idea of usability that is probably out of sync with what most people would understand the word to mean (especially people on Hacker News who are more likely to tinker with their setups and want to customise things than most). Also Macs taking a more cautious approach to app access to your filesystem and accessibility privileges is a good thingTM actually?
- rollcat 4y ago
  > Being usable out of the box? It's interesting that you bring up this point in defense of KDE, because that's exactly my problem with it, especially when contrasted with macOS. Every issue I have with KDE boils down to: "there are too many options, and none of them make the system feel right". > decent window snapping In my opinion, no window manager gets it right. I've made a shot at it with my Hammerspoon config[1], it will move/resize/tile floating windows in a 2x2/3x3 grid using custom hotkeys. It's annoying though, that the code works on macOS only - I could probably refactor it to work with an X11 window manager. [1]: https://github.com/rollcat/dotfiles/blob/master/.hammerspoon/init.lua https://github.com/rollcat/dotfiles/blob/master/.hammerspoon... > put files on my Android phone over USB I think integration within the Apple ecosystem is what really outshines all competition. I've never had to plug my iPhone over USB to a Mac, and yet I can just copy on the phone, and paste on the computer, like they are one device. Files, mail, contacts, calendar, photos, notes, todos, bookmarks, are all synced - heck I can use the phone camera as a webcam, all out of the box. > I don't need to give my terminal permission to display my fucking documents folder Sounds like you never had to fight SELinux or AppArmor. Personally I'm happy that desktop OS's are trying to improve end-user security (why do I have to type the root password to install a game, but I don't need one to run a cryptolocker?), but let's be honest, all attempts so far have ended up half-assed. The root of the issue is that desktop OS's must remain general-purpose tools, otherwise we could just as well call PCs glorified toasters.
  - kuschku 4y ago
    > I think integration within the Apple ecosystem is what really outshines all competition That may be, but a good OS should offer the same level of integration with devices of all kinds. Like the good old "Mac vs PC" ads suggested back in the day. KDE has KDE Connect for shared clipboard, sending files between devices, and such functionality. Which even supports Windows on PC, and allows syncing between multiple mobile and desktop devices, so you can have a shared clipboard across all your devices from all manufacturers.
    - rollcat 4y ago
      I have no doubt KDE Connect works on more platforms - which is great, but this is exactly my point vs OP's claim: all of these things work on Apple devices out of the box, whereas on other platforms, you have to (at least) install a third-party app.
- king_magic 4y ago
  Mighty strange definition of "unusable" you've got there. These are nothingburger complaints for 90% of typical Mac users. Sure, they might be annoying for you, but most users will just shrug at that list and think, yeah, but I can easily watch Apple TV on my Mac while I'm working.
  - pxc 4y ago
    Trying to settle in on a Mac coming from Linux yields a ton of moments like > What the fuck? The window manager can barely manage windows! > What the fuck? The volume mixer can't mix volumes! These are the core functionality of the desktop environment. It's a whole host of absolute basics that are missing. This also extends to lower levels. The filesystem has huge chunks of functionality missing to the point that it seems to basically defeat the point of running a CoW filesystem at all. Containerization support is pitiful. What the hell happened to multimonitor support? Setting up your first Mac as a Linux user ends up feeling like a ton of work involving a ton of disappointing dead ends. That's what GP means by 'unusable'. It's worth noting that this is not about being accustomed to doing things only one way. Most of these unmet expectations in DE functionality are part of a common minimum among Linux DEs. Sitting down at a GNOME desktop and getting to work is not nearly as frustrating for a Plasma user as trying to limp along with the builtins on the desktop that macOS provides.
    - king_magic 4y ago
      Again, nothingburger complaints for the vast majority of Mac users.
      - pxc 4y ago
        I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with that comment. That macOS has an audience? Obviously it does. That the macOS audience is largely unaccustomed to niceties that macOS lacks? Of course it is. How is that a meaningful or interesting defense of macOS? How does it enrich (or challenge) anyone's understanding of the ways that given a different context, macOS can actually seem not just alien but shoddy or incomplete?
- agloeregrets 4y ago
  Let me explain why the window snapping thing is a problem. https://patents.google.com/patent/US9239667B2/en?q=window+size&assignee=microsoft https://patents.google.com/patent/US9239667B2/en?q=window+si... It's such a dumb complaint. OSS is just infringing the patent, that's it. That is why no other commercial OS has it out of the box. As for the rest, sure...but like a lot of them are just silly complaints. Android uses Microsoft's PNP connectivity for data transfer. Once again...OSS.. The Scroll wheel direction thing is eh, personally I use both natural but I get it. The volume button thing has to do something with the display. I have a number of displays including a TCL TV that do have volume control. But fair. That 3rd party bit is a little silly and based on software acquisition preference, Windows also falls into that. I would rather a system that doesn't assume access to user data, it prevents malicious scripts on normal user's machines from just reading data willy-nilly. The accessibility thing is a little silly and needs better names on Apple's part but needing to give software permission is a strong security model.
  - goosedragons 4y ago
    So paid commercial apps like Better Touch Tool that implement snapping are also infringing? MS developed MTP but at this point it's a part of the USB standard. Many Android devices lack exFAT support but do support MTP which suggests to me it's not patent encumbered. Google has an app for Mac OS too, so no it's not just OSS once again. It's more like Apple deliberately knee-capping non-iPhones to steer users towards iPhones. Windows 11 includes a package manager, winget.

Beats macOS ...at what? Serious, not facetious, question. The only answer I can think of is "running on non-Apple hardware"

by rnd0 4y ago

Beats macOS ...at what? Serious, not facetious, question. The only answer I can think of is "running on non-Apple hardware"

goosedragons 4y ago

Being usable out of the box? With KDE I don't need to go find a 3rd party app for decent window snapping, I don't need a 3rd party app to put files on my Android phone over USB, I don't need a 3rd party app to have the trackpad and scroll wheel mouse directions be "natural" and "unnatural" at the same time, I don't need a 3rd party app to be able to use the volume buttons to change the volume level of a sound device connected by HDMI or Display port, I don't need a 3rd party package manager to get the software I actually want to use, I don't need to give my terminal permission to display my fucking documents folder, I don't need to give every 3rd app I install special accessibility privileges to be able to it's damn job, I don't need to do things like manually copy over my R binary so I can use a debugger attached to it, etc.

beanjuice 4y ago
These are all very specific complaints. By the numbers, does KDE answer the question "how do I interact with a school/volunteer/work .docx/.ppt/.xlsx file without likely breaking it?
- goosedragons 4y ago
  That's a pretty specific complaint. You can use the web version of Office. You can install Office under Wine. I personally have Office 2010 installed on Linux. It works.
  - NayamAmarshe 4y ago
    OnlyOffice works great too.
  - agloeregrets 4y ago
    lol I love how the specific complaint is what 99% of businesses do in practice while the OP post complains about coping an R binary.
vogon_laureate 4y ago
None of what you describe here makes Mac "unusable". If your idea of "usability" is not needing to ever install extra software on a machine because it perfectly suits your particular niche set of demands for said "usability", then you are subscribing to an idea of usability that is probably out of sync with what most people would understand the word to mean (especially people on Hacker News who are more likely to tinker with their setups and want to customise things than most). Also Macs taking a more cautious approach to app access to your filesystem and accessibility privileges is a good thingTM actually?
rollcat 4y ago
> Being usable out of the box? It's interesting that you bring up this point in defense of KDE, because that's exactly my problem with it, especially when contrasted with macOS. Every issue I have with KDE boils down to: "there are too many options, and none of them make the system feel right". > decent window snapping In my opinion, no window manager gets it right. I've made a shot at it with my Hammerspoon config[1], it will move/resize/tile floating windows in a 2x2/3x3 grid using custom hotkeys. It's annoying though, that the code works on macOS only - I could probably refactor it to work with an X11 window manager. [1]: https://github.com/rollcat/dotfiles/blob/master/.hammerspoon/init.lua https://github.com/rollcat/dotfiles/blob/master/.hammerspoon... > put files on my Android phone over USB I think integration within the Apple ecosystem is what really outshines all competition. I've never had to plug my iPhone over USB to a Mac, and yet I can just copy on the phone, and paste on the computer, like they are one device. Files, mail, contacts, calendar, photos, notes, todos, bookmarks, are all synced - heck I can use the phone camera as a webcam, all out of the box. > I don't need to give my terminal permission to display my fucking documents folder Sounds like you never had to fight SELinux or AppArmor. Personally I'm happy that desktop OS's are trying to improve end-user security (why do I have to type the root password to install a game, but I don't need one to run a cryptolocker?), but let's be honest, all attempts so far have ended up half-assed. The root of the issue is that desktop OS's must remain general-purpose tools, otherwise we could just as well call PCs glorified toasters.
- kuschku 4y ago
  > I think integration within the Apple ecosystem is what really outshines all competition That may be, but a good OS should offer the same level of integration with devices of all kinds. Like the good old "Mac vs PC" ads suggested back in the day. KDE has KDE Connect for shared clipboard, sending files between devices, and such functionality. Which even supports Windows on PC, and allows syncing between multiple mobile and desktop devices, so you can have a shared clipboard across all your devices from all manufacturers.
  - rollcat 4y ago
    I have no doubt KDE Connect works on more platforms - which is great, but this is exactly my point vs OP's claim: all of these things work on Apple devices out of the box, whereas on other platforms, you have to (at least) install a third-party app.
king_magic 4y ago
Mighty strange definition of "unusable" you've got there. These are nothingburger complaints for 90% of typical Mac users. Sure, they might be annoying for you, but most users will just shrug at that list and think, yeah, but I can easily watch Apple TV on my Mac while I'm working.
- pxc 4y ago
  Trying to settle in on a Mac coming from Linux yields a ton of moments like > What the fuck? The window manager can barely manage windows! > What the fuck? The volume mixer can't mix volumes! These are the core functionality of the desktop environment. It's a whole host of absolute basics that are missing. This also extends to lower levels. The filesystem has huge chunks of functionality missing to the point that it seems to basically defeat the point of running a CoW filesystem at all. Containerization support is pitiful. What the hell happened to multimonitor support? Setting up your first Mac as a Linux user ends up feeling like a ton of work involving a ton of disappointing dead ends. That's what GP means by 'unusable'. It's worth noting that this is not about being accustomed to doing things only one way. Most of these unmet expectations in DE functionality are part of a common minimum among Linux DEs. Sitting down at a GNOME desktop and getting to work is not nearly as frustrating for a Plasma user as trying to limp along with the builtins on the desktop that macOS provides.
  - king_magic 4y ago
    Again, nothingburger complaints for the vast majority of Mac users.
    - pxc 4y ago
      I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with that comment. That macOS has an audience? Obviously it does. That the macOS audience is largely unaccustomed to niceties that macOS lacks? Of course it is. How is that a meaningful or interesting defense of macOS? How does it enrich (or challenge) anyone's understanding of the ways that given a different context, macOS can actually seem not just alien but shoddy or incomplete?
agloeregrets 4y ago
Let me explain why the window snapping thing is a problem. https://patents.google.com/patent/US9239667B2/en?q=window+size&assignee=microsoft https://patents.google.com/patent/US9239667B2/en?q=window+si... It's such a dumb complaint. OSS is just infringing the patent, that's it. That is why no other commercial OS has it out of the box. As for the rest, sure...but like a lot of them are just silly complaints. Android uses Microsoft's PNP connectivity for data transfer. Once again...OSS.. The Scroll wheel direction thing is eh, personally I use both natural but I get it. The volume button thing has to do something with the display. I have a number of displays including a TCL TV that do have volume control. But fair. That 3rd party bit is a little silly and based on software acquisition preference, Windows also falls into that. I would rather a system that doesn't assume access to user data, it prevents malicious scripts on normal user's machines from just reading data willy-nilly. The accessibility thing is a little silly and needs better names on Apple's part but needing to give software permission is a strong security model.
- goosedragons 4y ago
  So paid commercial apps like Better Touch Tool that implement snapping are also infringing? MS developed MTP but at this point it's a part of the USB standard. Many Android devices lack exFAT support but do support MTP which suggests to me it's not patent encumbered. Google has an app for Mac OS too, so no it's not just OSS once again. It's more like Apple deliberately knee-capping non-iPhones to steer users towards iPhones. Windows 11 includes a package manager, winget.