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The article doesn't mention which satellites or which satellite provider is used. But Apple invested $450 million in Globalstar. https://www.apple.com/newsroom

The article doesn't mention which satellites or which satellite provider is used. But Apple invested $450 million in Globalstar. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/11/emergency-sos-via-satellite-made-possible-by-450m-apple-investment/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/11/emergency-sos-via-sat...

WhyNotHugo 4y ago
I was really wondering what kind of satellite-based emergency SOS they were using -- mostly because I'd never heard of it until it was being shipped in a commercial product, which is something very rare to see. So basically, they have their own infrastructure for their own proprietary 911 service with global coverage? It's really amazing that we live in a world where we can have such infrastructure, but at the same time, it's owned and controlled by a single corporation. I notice there's multiple mentions of these satellites working with the "Find My" service, which keeps track of where a device is (in order to find it where it's lost). So I guess all this infrastructure also allows Apple to pinpoint down any user worldwide -- even if they're off-grid.
- kotaKat 4y ago
  It's basically running on the same system as their current SPOT trackers in the S- and L-band. L-band up, S-band down.
  - addaon 4y ago
    Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that this was running on N53, which is towards the bottom of S band, both directions.
    - 310260 4y ago
      It's suppose to be on Globalstar's existing network which would be S-band and L-band but CDMA. It's not 5G-NR just yet though that's likely where they're headed. I think Apple added n53 as part of this deal at Globalstar's request. Globalstar is trying to lease their spectrum terrestrially for small cell networks and network capacity solutions for the carriers. https://www.globalstar.com/Globalstar/media/Globalstar/Downloads/CompanyOverview_Partnership.pdf https://www.globalstar.com/Globalstar/media/Globalstar/Downl... (PDF warning) Here's a presentation with some details.
    - kotaKat 4y ago
      https://fccid.io/BCG-E8140A https://fccid.io/BCG-E8140A The "emission type" for the satellite service is 198KG1D and operates under FCC rule Part 25 (Satellite Communications). They run 400mW or so up on 1.6GHz L-band, and ~90mW downlink S-band. https://fccid.io/L2V-PT3 https://fccid.io/L2V-PT3 A Spot Gen3 runs around 200mW on L-band only for both ways. There's a slightly different emissions type, but same satellites. The ground stations had additional hardware added by Cobham to support Apple's use on L/S-band.
- bmicraft 4y ago
  > So I guess all this infrastructure also allows Apple to pinpoint down any user worldwide -- even if they're off-grid. Well, they could do that in the past - GPS works (almost) everywhere. They'd just have to wait with sending the data back.
- mwint 4y ago
  Looks like it requires consciously deciding to share your location, and pointing your device where it tells you in the sky. They’re not going to burn precious bandwidth on an always-active tracking thing.
- 310260 4y ago
  >It's really amazing that we live in a world where we can have such infrastructure, but at the same time, it's owned and controlled by a single corporation. I get this sentiment. Globalstar does have competitors at least. Iridium and Inmarsat offer comparable services though not as seamlessly integrated into a popular consumer device. I do wonder what happens if you aren't paying for the service but have an emergency. I guess they just don't connect you at all? Is there an automatic charge for accessing it?
  - lxgr 4y ago
    It's currently free (for the first two years after purchase of the device), and I suspect that while emergency SOS messaging will always remain free, they will add paid P2P messaging soon.
- rtkwe 4y ago
  GPS has always been available to get location information even offline. What you usually don't get at the user end is a map of where you are because maps apps don't cache or download automatically. I've installed OSMAnd+ and downloaded a lot of maps to avoid that and I wish Google Maps or Apple Maps made it easier to download a large swath like you can with OSM. (you can even download POI to still be able to do some searching for places if you don't have an actual address) As for infrastructure I think Verizon is doing something similar with Starlink and there are multiple possible satellite constellations that could be connected too Apple is just the first to include what I think has to be a new radio or radio component.
  - brookst 4y ago
    I believe it is T-Mobile and Starlink, though very early stage (just a press release[0] about "a vision to give customers a crucial additional layer of connectivity" that "aims to work" with existing phones, far as I can tell). And yes, the Apple announcement is just the productization of a feature in the Qualcomm X65[1]. But I think this is a case where the technical implementation is the easiest part; I would be surprised of other X65 adopters also delivered satellite comms, at least unless/until it's obvious it's driving phone purchasing decisions. [0] https://www.t-mobile.com/news/un-carrier/t-mobile-takes-coverage-above-and-beyond-with-spacex https://www.t-mobile.com/news/un-carrier/t-mobile-takes-cove... [1] https://9to5mac.com/2022/09/18/iphone-14-satellite-connectivity-qualcomm/ https://9to5mac.com/2022/09/18/iphone-14-satellite-connectiv...
    - rtkwe 4y ago
      I think it depends massively on how much it costs the company to provide. If it's just a chip and a bit more software I think companies will include it. It's not clear from the press reports if the money Apple spent on building up base stations for this are just for them or if the satellite providers could use them for other companies phones.
      - totalZero 4y ago
        Knowing Qualcomm, there's probably a major royalty cost involved. If Apple spends $450 million to enable the service [0], that's about $2 per phone sold in 2021 [1]. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/10/apple-spending-450-million-with-globalstar-others-for-satellite-texting.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/10/apple-spending-450-million-w... [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-11/apple-expects-to-sustain-iphone-sales-in-2022-as-market-slows https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-11/apple-exp...
photochemsyn 4y ago
This article from LeMonde seems to imply that they're using Globalstar: > "To offer this new feature, Apple had to integrate a miniature antenna in its smartphone. It captures part of the signal of satellite constellations without relying on a satellite dish or a specific telephone handset. The iPhone manufacturer signed an agreement with Globalstar, one of the operators of low-altitude constellations, sets of satellites flying at about 500 kilometers from the Earth, in order to cover low-coverage areas of the globe. Specializing since 2007 in professional satellite messaging, Globalstar explained that it reached an agreement to launch 17 new satellites for 327 million dollars, 95% of which will be financed by Apple in exchange for 85% of their bandwidth." https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2022/09/13/apple-and-starlink-make-first-steps-in-satellite-connected-smartphones_5996768_19.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2022/09/13/apple-a...
- brookst 4y ago
  The "85% of their bandwidth" part is super interesting. It implies usage for much more than occasional emergencies. Globalstar has ~12Mhz of global S-Band spectrum[0], which they describe as "3.7 Billion MHz-POP", a unit I'm not grokking. But I am pretty sure that is a LOT more bandwidth than what will be used for highly compressed text messages in emergencies. [0] https://www.globalstar.com/Globalstar/media/Globalstar/Downloads/Spectrum/GlobalstarOverviewPresentation.pdf https://www.globalstar.com/Globalstar/media/Globalstar/Downl...
  - portyllo 4y ago
    A MHz-POP is just bandwidth times population covered by the Geographic Service Area (i.e., where the company is licensed to operate). For example, in the US, they would have 11.5 MHz x 330 M = 3.79 Billion MHz-POP.
    - brookst 4y ago
      Thank you! Doesn't that seem like a weird metric? I would think MHz/POP would make more sense. I guess the idea is to assume unlimited and independent channels to everyone as a first order?
CarbonCycles 4y ago
Anyone know performance wise between Garmin's use of Iridium and Globalstar? Iridium has been around for soo long...I am getting constant outages from the status page. Kind of disconcerting at times. Ah, I found the following article that somewhat explains the different technologies w/ "The main difference between Iridium and Globalstar is the relaying mechanism. Iridium requires relaying between satellites. Globalstar requires relaying between satellites and earth stations." https://www.mobilsat.com/the-best-satellite-phone-globalstar-vs-inmarsat-vs-iridium/ https://www.mobilsat.com/the-best-satellite-phone-globalstar...
ratg13 4y ago
in non-dollar terms: Apple is paying for 95% of Globalstar's new satellites and plans to use 85% of their network capacity.

WhyNotHugo 4y ago

I was really wondering what kind of satellite-based emergency SOS they were using -- mostly because I'd never heard of it until it was being shipped in a commercial product, which is something very rare to see. So basically, they have their own infrastructure for their own proprietary 911 service with global coverage? It's really amazing that we live in a world where we can have such infrastructure, but at the same time, it's owned and controlled by a single corporation. I notice there's multiple mentions of these satellites working with the "Find My" service, which keeps track of where a device is (in order to find it where it's lost). So I guess all this infrastructure also allows Apple to pinpoint down any user worldwide -- even if they're off-grid.

kotaKat 4y ago
It's basically running on the same system as their current SPOT trackers in the S- and L-band. L-band up, S-band down.
- addaon 4y ago
  Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that this was running on N53, which is towards the bottom of S band, both directions.
  - 310260 4y ago
    It's suppose to be on Globalstar's existing network which would be S-band and L-band but CDMA. It's not 5G-NR just yet though that's likely where they're headed. I think Apple added n53 as part of this deal at Globalstar's request. Globalstar is trying to lease their spectrum terrestrially for small cell networks and network capacity solutions for the carriers. https://www.globalstar.com/Globalstar/media/Globalstar/Downloads/CompanyOverview_Partnership.pdf https://www.globalstar.com/Globalstar/media/Globalstar/Downl... (PDF warning) Here's a presentation with some details.
  - kotaKat 4y ago
    https://fccid.io/BCG-E8140A https://fccid.io/BCG-E8140A The "emission type" for the satellite service is 198KG1D and operates under FCC rule Part 25 (Satellite Communications). They run 400mW or so up on 1.6GHz L-band, and ~90mW downlink S-band. https://fccid.io/L2V-PT3 https://fccid.io/L2V-PT3 A Spot Gen3 runs around 200mW on L-band only for both ways. There's a slightly different emissions type, but same satellites. The ground stations had additional hardware added by Cobham to support Apple's use on L/S-band.
bmicraft 4y ago
> So I guess all this infrastructure also allows Apple to pinpoint down any user worldwide -- even if they're off-grid. Well, they could do that in the past - GPS works (almost) everywhere. They'd just have to wait with sending the data back.
mwint 4y ago
Looks like it requires consciously deciding to share your location, and pointing your device where it tells you in the sky. They’re not going to burn precious bandwidth on an always-active tracking thing.
310260 4y ago
>It's really amazing that we live in a world where we can have such infrastructure, but at the same time, it's owned and controlled by a single corporation. I get this sentiment. Globalstar does have competitors at least. Iridium and Inmarsat offer comparable services though not as seamlessly integrated into a popular consumer device. I do wonder what happens if you aren't paying for the service but have an emergency. I guess they just don't connect you at all? Is there an automatic charge for accessing it?
- lxgr 4y ago
  It's currently free (for the first two years after purchase of the device), and I suspect that while emergency SOS messaging will always remain free, they will add paid P2P messaging soon.
rtkwe 4y ago
GPS has always been available to get location information even offline. What you usually don't get at the user end is a map of where you are because maps apps don't cache or download automatically. I've installed OSMAnd+ and downloaded a lot of maps to avoid that and I wish Google Maps or Apple Maps made it easier to download a large swath like you can with OSM. (you can even download POI to still be able to do some searching for places if you don't have an actual address) As for infrastructure I think Verizon is doing something similar with Starlink and there are multiple possible satellite constellations that could be connected too Apple is just the first to include what I think has to be a new radio or radio component.
- brookst 4y ago
  I believe it is T-Mobile and Starlink, though very early stage (just a press release[0] about "a vision to give customers a crucial additional layer of connectivity" that "aims to work" with existing phones, far as I can tell). And yes, the Apple announcement is just the productization of a feature in the Qualcomm X65[1]. But I think this is a case where the technical implementation is the easiest part; I would be surprised of other X65 adopters also delivered satellite comms, at least unless/until it's obvious it's driving phone purchasing decisions. [0] https://www.t-mobile.com/news/un-carrier/t-mobile-takes-coverage-above-and-beyond-with-spacex https://www.t-mobile.com/news/un-carrier/t-mobile-takes-cove... [1] https://9to5mac.com/2022/09/18/iphone-14-satellite-connectivity-qualcomm/ https://9to5mac.com/2022/09/18/iphone-14-satellite-connectiv...
  - rtkwe 4y ago
    I think it depends massively on how much it costs the company to provide. If it's just a chip and a bit more software I think companies will include it. It's not clear from the press reports if the money Apple spent on building up base stations for this are just for them or if the satellite providers could use them for other companies phones.
    - totalZero 4y ago
      Knowing Qualcomm, there's probably a major royalty cost involved. If Apple spends $450 million to enable the service [0], that's about $2 per phone sold in 2021 [1]. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/10/apple-spending-450-million-with-globalstar-others-for-satellite-texting.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/10/apple-spending-450-million-w... [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-11/apple-expects-to-sustain-iphone-sales-in-2022-as-market-slows https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-11/apple-exp...

photochemsyn 4y ago

This article from LeMonde seems to imply that they're using Globalstar: > "To offer this new feature, Apple had to integrate a miniature antenna in its smartphone. It captures part of the signal of satellite constellations without relying on a satellite dish or a specific telephone handset. The iPhone manufacturer signed an agreement with Globalstar, one of the operators of low-altitude constellations, sets of satellites flying at about 500 kilometers from the Earth, in order to cover low-coverage areas of the globe. Specializing since 2007 in professional satellite messaging, Globalstar explained that it reached an agreement to launch 17 new satellites for 327 million dollars, 95% of which will be financed by Apple in exchange for 85% of their bandwidth." https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2022/09/13/apple-and-starlink-make-first-steps-in-satellite-connected-smartphones_5996768_19.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2022/09/13/apple-a...

brookst 4y ago
The "85% of their bandwidth" part is super interesting. It implies usage for much more than occasional emergencies. Globalstar has ~12Mhz of global S-Band spectrum[0], which they describe as "3.7 Billion MHz-POP", a unit I'm not grokking. But I am pretty sure that is a LOT more bandwidth than what will be used for highly compressed text messages in emergencies. [0] https://www.globalstar.com/Globalstar/media/Globalstar/Downloads/Spectrum/GlobalstarOverviewPresentation.pdf https://www.globalstar.com/Globalstar/media/Globalstar/Downl...
- portyllo 4y ago
  A MHz-POP is just bandwidth times population covered by the Geographic Service Area (i.e., where the company is licensed to operate). For example, in the US, they would have 11.5 MHz x 330 M = 3.79 Billion MHz-POP.
  - brookst 4y ago
    Thank you! Doesn't that seem like a weird metric? I would think MHz/POP would make more sense. I guess the idea is to assume unlimited and independent channels to everyone as a first order?

CarbonCycles 4y ago

Anyone know performance wise between Garmin's use of Iridium and Globalstar? Iridium has been around for soo long...I am getting constant outages from the status page. Kind of disconcerting at times. Ah, I found the following article that somewhat explains the different technologies w/ "The main difference between Iridium and Globalstar is the relaying mechanism. Iridium requires relaying between satellites. Globalstar requires relaying between satellites and earth stations." https://www.mobilsat.com/the-best-satellite-phone-globalstar-vs-inmarsat-vs-iridium/ https://www.mobilsat.com/the-best-satellite-phone-globalstar...

ratg13 4y ago

in non-dollar terms: Apple is paying for 95% of Globalstar's new satellites and plans to use 85% of their network capacity.