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And yet despite that these countries have much much higher rates of booster vaccination than the USA does (not to mention there are dozens of other countries no

by jjcon 4y ago

And yet despite that these countries have much much higher rates of booster vaccination than the USA does (not to mention there are dozens of other countries not listed in your comment with similar policies to the USA). I think this has more to do with how the health agencies in these countries choose to communicate than anything else; that is I don't think the wording and nuance of all recommendations can be directly compared so easily. Norway: 70% Boosted Denmark: 63% Boosted Australia:56% Boosted Sweden: 71% Boosted Finland: 74% Boosted USA: 34% Boosted SOURCE: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccina...

sfusato 4y ago
Is that counting the 1st booster? These policy changes came after the 1st booster.
- jjcon 4y ago
  > Is that counting the 1st booster? These policy changes came after the 1st booster. Yes it is counting any booster after primary 2 doses - which policy changes specifically? Most of these countries have been relatively consistent in their approach to boosters.
  - sfusato 4y ago
    They stopped recommending further boosters to younger people after the 1st booster. These 50+ or 65+ only recommendations are rather recent. That's all I'm saying. You would need to account only from the 2nd booster onwards basically.
    - jjcon 4y ago
      > They stopped recommending further boosters to younger people after the 1st booster. Which country(s) specifically changed their guidance about boosters after the 1st booster was released? Again I'm not aware of large swings in policy in most of these countries. Some aren't recommending 4th doses yet but I don't think any have changed policies about boosters after the fact.
      - bonzini 4y ago
        Almost all European countries (perhaps all?) have changed policies about further boosters. For example in Italy the first booster was recommended to everyone and required to prolong the validity of the vaccination certificate, but the second (Omicron specific) is only recommended to the same categories for which the flu vaccine is recommended yearly.
      - hammock 4y ago
        You are reading the wrong news sources then. So many European countries have changed their recommendations “after the fact” especially for children and young adults
        jjcon 4y ago
        And yet after asking repeatedly nobody can provide me a source where they have changed their minds after the fact about the first booster
        sfusato 4y ago
        The 1st booster was recommended to everyone, further boosters only to older population. In US (with the exception of Florida), further boosters are still recommended to 5+ (five year olds and up), while that's no longer the case in lots of countries. Or, you are implying the cited above sources were for the 1st booster as well and thus they haven't changed their minds?
  - piva00 4y ago
    At least in Sweden the policy regarding booster after the 3rd shot has changed [1]: > Adults > For adults aged 18–64, the recommendation for three doses of the vaccinate remains in force. But anyone who wants to receive an additional booster dose, dose 4, may do so in the autumn of 2022. 65 plus and risk groups > An additional booster dose of the Covid-19 vaccine is recommended for the autumn and winter 2022/23 for adults aged 65 years or over, as well as people aged 18 or over who are in an at-risk group. This recommendation is valid from 1 September 2022 and covers everyone who is at an increased risk of serious Covid -19 disease. [1] https://www.krisinformation.se/en/hazards-and-risks/disasters-and-incidents/2020/official-information-on-the-new-coronavirus/vaccination-against-covid-19/when-is-it-my-turn https://www.krisinformation.se/en/hazards-and-risks/disaster...
    - jjcon 4y ago
      That is still recommending boosters 18+ though, its only clarifying for additional doses beyond 3rd doses - they didn't change their recommendation for boosters after the fact.
veeti 4y ago
These numbers are wrong for Finland. Source: https://yle.fi/news/3-11863045 https://yle.fi/news/3-11863045
- jjcon 4y ago
  I'm seeing 72.4 from your source (last updated just over a month ago) vs 74% from the NYT. I'm guessing your source is just slightly older? +1.6% in the past month seems reasonable to me
  - veeti 4y ago
    What are you talking about? Only 54% - or only 18% if you consider 4th dose, not available to general population - are boosted. The number in NYT is blatantly false. Surely you are not adding 3rd + 4th dose together? You can't do that. They are the same group of people. If everyone who got the 3rd shot got the 4th today, 108% of Finnish population would be boosted?
rsj_hn 4y ago
A lot of this has to do with social trust and politicization. For a number of reasons, going back to the early days of Tuskeegee syphilis studies, public health in the U.S. is viewed by large portions of the public as imperious, corrupt, unaccountable, beholden to big business and/or utopian ideologies, and is generally viewed with suspicion by many on the left and on the right. African Americans have the lowest vaccination rates by race. But this is across the board. Prior to covid, for example, the ground zero for anti-vaccination movements was Marin County, California -- one of the most liberal counties in the nation, where only 50% of students in some schools were given smallpox/measles vaccines and there were outbreaks as a result. Given this environment, American public health authorities should recognize their credibility gaps and embark on a program of transparency, consistency, accountability, and humility. Unfortunately this is the exact opposite of their behavior. There remains deep ties between public health agencies and large pharmaceutical companies, public health officials continue to invest in and hold patents owned by companies that fall under their purview, there is still a revolving door between the two, there is very little transparency, no accountability for funding research in foreign labs to skirt US safety rules and congressional restrictions, public health officials were widely photographed in meetings without wearing masks (surrounded by masked servants), and they adopt imperious tones demanding draconian punishments for deviations from policy as well as calling for censorship of their critics. Fauci's declaration that "I am the science" is an example of this imperious attitude, which is frankly disastrous. Until there is real reform, the U.S. is going to maintain a huge credibility gap vis-a-vis other nations, which will make public health efforts that much harder here, and will also lower long term public health outcomes.
- annexrichmond 4y ago
  It's interesting the narratives you hear with regards to antivaxxers. My sister is vegan and is in many vegan, all-natural, etc Facebook groups. She told me there's a lot of overlap of people there and people who chose not take the COVID vaccine. One of her best friends is a teacher in Canada from Trinidad; she grew up without vaccines and similarly never gave her child the COVID vaccine These two examples just seemed very different than the typical "antivaxxer" I hear about. Although it still seems premature to call someone who only doesn't take the first mainstream mRNA vaccine an antivaxxer.
t0bia_s 4y ago
Do not forget that those numbers including people who has boosters only on paper. I know plenty of people that has just papers for both vaccination and boosters. Including doctors and health care staff. You konw... If there is push, you'll pushed to find another way.
- salad-tycoon 4y ago
  German man took 90+ boosters for others. Lots of fake paper.

by jjcon 4y ago

sfusato 4y ago

Is that counting the 1st booster? These policy changes came after the 1st booster.

jjcon 4y ago
> Is that counting the 1st booster? These policy changes came after the 1st booster. Yes it is counting any booster after primary 2 doses - which policy changes specifically? Most of these countries have been relatively consistent in their approach to boosters.
- sfusato 4y ago
  They stopped recommending further boosters to younger people after the 1st booster. These 50+ or 65+ only recommendations are rather recent. That's all I'm saying. You would need to account only from the 2nd booster onwards basically.
  - jjcon 4y ago
    > They stopped recommending further boosters to younger people after the 1st booster. Which country(s) specifically changed their guidance about boosters after the 1st booster was released? Again I'm not aware of large swings in policy in most of these countries. Some aren't recommending 4th doses yet but I don't think any have changed policies about boosters after the fact.
    - bonzini 4y ago
      Almost all European countries (perhaps all?) have changed policies about further boosters. For example in Italy the first booster was recommended to everyone and required to prolong the validity of the vaccination certificate, but the second (Omicron specific) is only recommended to the same categories for which the flu vaccine is recommended yearly.
    - hammock 4y ago
      You are reading the wrong news sources then. So many European countries have changed their recommendations “after the fact” especially for children and young adults
      - jjcon 4y ago
        And yet after asking repeatedly nobody can provide me a source where they have changed their minds after the fact about the first booster
        sfusato 4y ago
        The 1st booster was recommended to everyone, further boosters only to older population. In US (with the exception of Florida), further boosters are still recommended to 5+ (five year olds and up), while that's no longer the case in lots of countries. Or, you are implying the cited above sources were for the 1st booster as well and thus they haven't changed their minds?
- piva00 4y ago
  At least in Sweden the policy regarding booster after the 3rd shot has changed [1]: > Adults > For adults aged 18–64, the recommendation for three doses of the vaccinate remains in force. But anyone who wants to receive an additional booster dose, dose 4, may do so in the autumn of 2022. 65 plus and risk groups > An additional booster dose of the Covid-19 vaccine is recommended for the autumn and winter 2022/23 for adults aged 65 years or over, as well as people aged 18 or over who are in an at-risk group. This recommendation is valid from 1 September 2022 and covers everyone who is at an increased risk of serious Covid -19 disease. [1] https://www.krisinformation.se/en/hazards-and-risks/disasters-and-incidents/2020/official-information-on-the-new-coronavirus/vaccination-against-covid-19/when-is-it-my-turn https://www.krisinformation.se/en/hazards-and-risks/disaster...
  - jjcon 4y ago
    That is still recommending boosters 18+ though, its only clarifying for additional doses beyond 3rd doses - they didn't change their recommendation for boosters after the fact.

veeti 4y ago

These numbers are wrong for Finland. Source: https://yle.fi/news/3-11863045 https://yle.fi/news/3-11863045

jjcon 4y ago
I'm seeing 72.4 from your source (last updated just over a month ago) vs 74% from the NYT. I'm guessing your source is just slightly older? +1.6% in the past month seems reasonable to me
- veeti 4y ago
  What are you talking about? Only 54% - or only 18% if you consider 4th dose, not available to general population - are boosted. The number in NYT is blatantly false. Surely you are not adding 3rd + 4th dose together? You can't do that. They are the same group of people. If everyone who got the 3rd shot got the 4th today, 108% of Finnish population would be boosted?

rsj_hn 4y ago

A lot of this has to do with social trust and politicization. For a number of reasons, going back to the early days of Tuskeegee syphilis studies, public health in the U.S. is viewed by large portions of the public as imperious, corrupt, unaccountable, beholden to big business and/or utopian ideologies, and is generally viewed with suspicion by many on the left and on the right. African Americans have the lowest vaccination rates by race. But this is across the board. Prior to covid, for example, the ground zero for anti-vaccination movements was Marin County, California -- one of the most liberal counties in the nation, where only 50% of students in some schools were given smallpox/measles vaccines and there were outbreaks as a result. Given this environment, American public health authorities should recognize their credibility gaps and embark on a program of transparency, consistency, accountability, and humility. Unfortunately this is the exact opposite of their behavior. There remains deep ties between public health agencies and large pharmaceutical companies, public health officials continue to invest in and hold patents owned by companies that fall under their purview, there is still a revolving door between the two, there is very little transparency, no accountability for funding research in foreign labs to skirt US safety rules and congressional restrictions, public health officials were widely photographed in meetings without wearing masks (surrounded by masked servants), and they adopt imperious tones demanding draconian punishments for deviations from policy as well as calling for censorship of their critics. Fauci's declaration that "I am the science" is an example of this imperious attitude, which is frankly disastrous. Until there is real reform, the U.S. is going to maintain a huge credibility gap vis-a-vis other nations, which will make public health efforts that much harder here, and will also lower long term public health outcomes.

annexrichmond 4y ago
It's interesting the narratives you hear with regards to antivaxxers. My sister is vegan and is in many vegan, all-natural, etc Facebook groups. She told me there's a lot of overlap of people there and people who chose not take the COVID vaccine. One of her best friends is a teacher in Canada from Trinidad; she grew up without vaccines and similarly never gave her child the COVID vaccine These two examples just seemed very different than the typical "antivaxxer" I hear about. Although it still seems premature to call someone who only doesn't take the first mainstream mRNA vaccine an antivaxxer.

t0bia_s 4y ago

Do not forget that those numbers including people who has boosters only on paper. I know plenty of people that has just papers for both vaccination and boosters. Including doctors and health care staff. You konw... If there is push, you'll pushed to find another way.

salad-tycoon 4y ago
German man took 90+ boosters for others. Lots of fake paper.