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Even the neighbouring country Canada stopped giving Moderna to people under 30 a year ago in September 2021. The CDC on the other hand is still continuing on. C

Even the neighbouring country Canada stopped giving Moderna to people under 30 a year ago in September 2021. The CDC on the other hand is still continuing on. Clearly something is wrong in the US.

nomel 4y ago
It became political, causing FDA heads to resign [1] after threats [2]. And now, the latest booster was approved with no human trials at all [3]. 1. https://www.businessinsider.com/2-top-fda-officials-resigned-biden-booster-plan-reports-2021-9 https://www.businessinsider.com/2-top-fda-officials-resigned... 2. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/white-house-threatens-to-fire-fda-chief-unless-covid-vaccine-oked-friday-report.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/white-house-threatens-to-fir... 3. https://www.health.com/news/new-covid-boosters-human-testing-safety https://www.health.com/news/new-covid-boosters-human-testing...
- jjcon 4y ago
  Flu shots don't require human trials either, should covid be all that different (genuine question) if so why?
  - walterbell 4y ago
    Flu shots were not mandated for work, study or travel.
    - jjcon 4y ago
      Is anyone requiring boosters for work, study or travel? Not to my knowledge.
      - koolba 4y ago
        New York University (NYU) requires boosters for all students: https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-information/covid-related-guidance/covid-19-vaccine.html https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-...
        exodust 4y ago
        "Students may request an exemption from the vaccination requirement for medical or religious reasons" Even as an atheist, I'd be getting the religious exemption for sure! Mandating boosters for healthy young students doesn't make a lot of sense. We know now that vaccination is not the way transmission of the virus is managed.
      - sfusato 4y ago
        Harvard requires all students to be up-to-date on their COVID-19 vaccinations including the bivalent Omicron-specific COVID-19 booster. https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-information/ https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-informa... Yale students will be required to get an updated, bivalent COVID-19 vaccine booster by the start of the spring semester. https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-dean/messages-dean/updated-covid-19-vaccine-booster-requirements https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-de... Tufts University followed suit on Sept. 16, announcing it would require students, staff, and faculty to get the omicron vaccine booster by Dec. 2. https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vaccinations-tufts https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vacc...
      - pandeiro 4y ago
        University of California "With this recommendation, the UC Vaccine policy now requires all staff and students to get the bivalent booster, when eligible" [1] https://campusready.ucdavis.edu/covid-vaccination https://campusready.ucdavis.edu/covid-vaccination
    - Grim-444 4y ago
      Flu shots also use a vaccine mechanism that's been known/used for decades and is not a first of its kind in history mRNA treatment. I feel like this difference would lead towards one requiring more testing than the other, at least in a rational society. [Edit] For anyone that wants to downvote this, please explain what I said that was untrue. Flu shots in the US have never been mRNA based. Covid shots in the US are mRNA based. Before covid, there was never at any point in history an mRNA based vaccine rolled out to the public.
      - VBprogrammer 4y ago
        I didn't downvote you but if the 12 billion or so COVID vaccine doses issued world wide don't convince you that the vaccine is statistically safe, at least as safe as something as common as paracetamol or aspirin, then what amount of testing would convince you?
        yonaguska 4y ago
        It doesn't convince me because I do not know anyone personally that has had an adverse reaction to aspirin, that didn't also overdose on it. Meanwhile, I know several people that have had adverse reactions to the vaccine ranging from issues with periods, to heart problems, to death. No one is seriously tracking the adverse reactions, we've handed that off to the companies that produced the vaccines. And doctors are afraid to or don't care to raise concerns either. The vaccines are as statistically safe for me as COVID is for my age and health profile. And the vaccine makes no guarantee that I won't still catch COVID. Why would I double my risk when I've caught COVID, and it was nothing for me.
        salad-tycoon 4y ago
        Just a nurse, this is true. I’ve been running a vaccine clinic. Very few to none are putting in adverse events to the proper place, there are competing data banks to report adverse reactions to (many of which are black boxes, data goes in and nothing comes out), doctors are dismissive, and in the few cases they do admit x,y,z caused by vaccine it is documented lightly.
    - belltaco 4y ago
      Not true. https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/laws-regs/vaccination-immigration/revised-vaccination-immigration-faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/laws-regs/vaccina... https://ihpi.umich.edu/news/most-hospitals-now-require-workers-get-flu-shots-%E2%80%93-except-those-treat-veterans-study-finds https://ihpi.umich.edu/news/most-hospitals-now-require-worke...
    - kube-system 4y ago
      All three of those are wrong in at least some circumstances. Several members of my family have been getting their mandatory flu shots for decades.
      - walterbell 4y ago
        There's a sizable difference between: - informed consent at the time of signing an employment (e.g. military, medical) contract with known career conditions - new conditions (mandates) being added to existing labor contracts, while there is active litigation on the purpose and legality of those conditions, and re-definition of legal language (e.g. CDC's 2021 redefinition of "vaccine") used in mandates
        kube-system 4y ago
        There are also many places in the US where influenza shots aren't contractual, they're law, particularly for those in schools, long-term care facilities, and healthcare settings. And vaccine mandates have hundreds of years of precedent in the US. It ain't the mandates that are new, it's the political climate.
        walterbell 4y ago
        Same principle applies, if you don't like the law, don't join that career. Very different from mandates being applied to existing jobs previously not subject to mandates. > It ain't the mandates that are new. The CDC (re)definition of vaccine is new. Also the redefinition of pandemic around 2010.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        kube-system 4y ago
        These mandates aren't only occupational. You may be required by law to be vaccinated to attend school in some places, or to be in certain care facilities. And the CDC wrote zero of these laws. The CDC's rephrasing of an FAQ article on their website may be a good starter for a right wing conspiracy theory article, but it has no bearing on this topic.
  - paul 4y ago
    It’s both a novel virus and a novel vaccine. Without clinical trials we really don’t know if the boosters are helping or hurting. Also, we should be doing clinical trials on flu shots as well. New drugs, even if they are only slightly different still require clinical trials. Why is hacking the immune system not subject to the same scrutiny?
  - nomel 4y ago
    Clearly, the flu shots are fairly established science (1945, 77 years), of a well researched virus. They're not a new form of vaccine delivery, pushed through on an emergency basis, with exclusions to testing, with legal protection against any damages for those exclusions, and 70 year trial document release plans. Could you help me understand why you think the context is so similar between the two? What's your opinion on members of the FDA leaving due to widely publicized political pressure to approve the vaccine? Do you think they were wrong for pushing back?
    - nomel 4y ago
      After re-reading this thread, the angle of this comment wasn't warranted. I apologize.
Q6T46nT668w6i3m 4y ago
Canada might be our neighbor but it’s wildly different from a population and care perspective.
- canadiantim 4y ago
  Why is that the case? Moderna is good for Americans under 30 but not Canadians under 30?
  - edmundsauto 4y ago
    Could it be because lifestyle factors in the US put more u30 at risk of dying from Covid than in Canada? Or that the most vulnerable populations in Canada still have access to healthcare if they do need a ventilator? Genuinely hypothesizing, I am not sure of the answer but that’s what came to mind when I read your question.
    - nradov 4y ago
      Access to ventilators or lack thereof has no significant impact on death rates. Very few patients are put on ventilators now since those are considered salvage therapy only used when all else has failed. The initial focus on ventilators early in the pandemic was misguided and not based on any reliable evidence.
      - edmundsauto 4y ago
        > The initial focus on ventilators early in the pandemic was misguided and not based on any reliable evidence. Was there reliable evidence to the contrary during the initial infection window (2020)? (IE, anything showing that vents don't help)
        TMWNN 4y ago
        Yes. <https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-...> was completely vindicated in retrospect.
atlgator 4y ago
Money in politics is the problem in the US.
- serf 4y ago
  it's amusing to think that US politics is the only one with that problem.
  - atlgator 4y ago
    Did anyone say that?
    - x86_64Ubuntu 4y ago
      No, but then we should see more Western countries with money problems having the same issues.
      - atlgator 4y ago
        Where else in the West can you sway a country the size of Europe by funding maybe 20 influencers across the Legislative and the Executive Branches? President, VP, Speaker of the House, Senate Majority Leader, and maybe some key committee chairs and Cabinet members are really all you need. They are the playmakers. Add to that the amount of influence the US has with Western trading partners and we become a prime target for a lot more "donations" than other Western countries. Didn't Biden and Trump each spend $1B on their 2020 campaigns? Anywhere else spend that kind of money in the West? TLDR It's a matter of degrees.
        abduhl 4y ago
        Isn’t there an ongoing scandal involving the top ranks of EU leadership regarding the Pfizer vaccine contracts and how they were procured? It seems like you don’t have to look too far in the West outside the US to find somewhere you can spend a little cash on an “influencer” to get ahead. And luckily, it’s even less people than you’d have to bribe in America plus there’s no real way for the people to get rid of someone they never voted in, even though all of Europe can smell Ursula’s corporate stink. And according to other posters in this thread, it seems like the Pfizer vaccine is the vaccine recommended broadly over the Moderna vaccine in Europe. Coincidence, I’m sure.
justsee 4y ago
In Australia it appears they're changing public messaging on vaccination for <30 yrs due to increased risk of myocarditis and lack of notable benefits[1]: "One of the nation’s top advisers on vaccination says it is unlikely young people under 30 will be approved for fourth doses, as Australia turns its attention to antiviral access to tackle yet another Omicron wave." "Former ATAGI co-chair and current member Professor Allen Cheng said the increased risk of myocarditis and the lack of notable benefit from additional boosters meant it was likely the recommended vaccine schedule for younger people would remain as is. Some are approaching a year since their booster shot." [1] https://www.smh.com.au/national/why-you-won-t-get-another-covid-shot-this-year-despite-rising-cases-20221110-p5bx78.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/why-you-won-t-get-another-co...
barbazoo 4y ago
I don't think that's true and it's not that hard to find out https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-health-products/covid19-industry/drugs-vaccines-treatments/vaccines/moderna.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-health... > Approved for: > Primary series in individuals age 6 months and older, or as a booster dose in individuals age 18 years and older (Moderna Spikevax® COVID-19 vaccine) > As a booster dose in individuals age 18 years and older (Moderna Spikevax® Bivalent COVID-19 vaccine (Original/Omicron B.1.1.529 (BA.1)) > As a booster dose in individuals age 18 years and older (Moderna Spikevax® Bivalent COVID-19 vaccine (Original/Omicron BA.4/5)

Even the neighbouring country Canada stopped giving Moderna to people under 30 a year ago in September 2021. The CDC on the other hand is still continuing on. Clearly something is wrong in the US.

nomel 4y ago

It became political, causing FDA heads to resign [1] after threats [2]. And now, the latest booster was approved with no human trials at all [3]. 1. https://www.businessinsider.com/2-top-fda-officials-resigned-biden-booster-plan-reports-2021-9 https://www.businessinsider.com/2-top-fda-officials-resigned... 2. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/white-house-threatens-to-fire-fda-chief-unless-covid-vaccine-oked-friday-report.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/white-house-threatens-to-fir... 3. https://www.health.com/news/new-covid-boosters-human-testing-safety https://www.health.com/news/new-covid-boosters-human-testing...

jjcon 4y ago
Flu shots don't require human trials either, should covid be all that different (genuine question) if so why?
- walterbell 4y ago
  Flu shots were not mandated for work, study or travel.
  - jjcon 4y ago
    Is anyone requiring boosters for work, study or travel? Not to my knowledge.
    - koolba 4y ago
      New York University (NYU) requires boosters for all students: https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-information/covid-related-guidance/covid-19-vaccine.html https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-...
      - exodust 4y ago
        "Students may request an exemption from the vaccination requirement for medical or religious reasons" Even as an atheist, I'd be getting the religious exemption for sure! Mandating boosters for healthy young students doesn't make a lot of sense. We know now that vaccination is not the way transmission of the virus is managed.
    - sfusato 4y ago
      Harvard requires all students to be up-to-date on their COVID-19 vaccinations including the bivalent Omicron-specific COVID-19 booster. https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-information/ https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-informa... Yale students will be required to get an updated, bivalent COVID-19 vaccine booster by the start of the spring semester. https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-dean/messages-dean/updated-covid-19-vaccine-booster-requirements https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-de... Tufts University followed suit on Sept. 16, announcing it would require students, staff, and faculty to get the omicron vaccine booster by Dec. 2. https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vaccinations-tufts https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vacc...
    - pandeiro 4y ago
      University of California "With this recommendation, the UC Vaccine policy now requires all staff and students to get the bivalent booster, when eligible" [1] https://campusready.ucdavis.edu/covid-vaccination https://campusready.ucdavis.edu/covid-vaccination
  - Grim-444 4y ago
    Flu shots also use a vaccine mechanism that's been known/used for decades and is not a first of its kind in history mRNA treatment. I feel like this difference would lead towards one requiring more testing than the other, at least in a rational society. [Edit] For anyone that wants to downvote this, please explain what I said that was untrue. Flu shots in the US have never been mRNA based. Covid shots in the US are mRNA based. Before covid, there was never at any point in history an mRNA based vaccine rolled out to the public.
    - VBprogrammer 4y ago
      I didn't downvote you but if the 12 billion or so COVID vaccine doses issued world wide don't convince you that the vaccine is statistically safe, at least as safe as something as common as paracetamol or aspirin, then what amount of testing would convince you?
      - yonaguska 4y ago
        It doesn't convince me because I do not know anyone personally that has had an adverse reaction to aspirin, that didn't also overdose on it. Meanwhile, I know several people that have had adverse reactions to the vaccine ranging from issues with periods, to heart problems, to death. No one is seriously tracking the adverse reactions, we've handed that off to the companies that produced the vaccines. And doctors are afraid to or don't care to raise concerns either. The vaccines are as statistically safe for me as COVID is for my age and health profile. And the vaccine makes no guarantee that I won't still catch COVID. Why would I double my risk when I've caught COVID, and it was nothing for me.
        salad-tycoon 4y ago
        Just a nurse, this is true. I’ve been running a vaccine clinic. Very few to none are putting in adverse events to the proper place, there are competing data banks to report adverse reactions to (many of which are black boxes, data goes in and nothing comes out), doctors are dismissive, and in the few cases they do admit x,y,z caused by vaccine it is documented lightly.
  - belltaco 4y ago
    Not true. https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/laws-regs/vaccination-immigration/revised-vaccination-immigration-faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/laws-regs/vaccina... https://ihpi.umich.edu/news/most-hospitals-now-require-workers-get-flu-shots-%E2%80%93-except-those-treat-veterans-study-finds https://ihpi.umich.edu/news/most-hospitals-now-require-worke...
  - kube-system 4y ago
    All three of those are wrong in at least some circumstances. Several members of my family have been getting their mandatory flu shots for decades.
    - walterbell 4y ago
      There's a sizable difference between: - informed consent at the time of signing an employment (e.g. military, medical) contract with known career conditions - new conditions (mandates) being added to existing labor contracts, while there is active litigation on the purpose and legality of those conditions, and re-definition of legal language (e.g. CDC's 2021 redefinition of "vaccine") used in mandates
      - kube-system 4y ago
        There are also many places in the US where influenza shots aren't contractual, they're law, particularly for those in schools, long-term care facilities, and healthcare settings. And vaccine mandates have hundreds of years of precedent in the US. It ain't the mandates that are new, it's the political climate.
        walterbell 4y ago
        Same principle applies, if you don't like the law, don't join that career. Very different from mandates being applied to existing jobs previously not subject to mandates. > It ain't the mandates that are new. The CDC (re)definition of vaccine is new. Also the redefinition of pandemic around 2010.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        kube-system 4y ago
        These mandates aren't only occupational. You may be required by law to be vaccinated to attend school in some places, or to be in certain care facilities. And the CDC wrote zero of these laws. The CDC's rephrasing of an FAQ article on their website may be a good starter for a right wing conspiracy theory article, but it has no bearing on this topic.
- paul 4y ago
  It’s both a novel virus and a novel vaccine. Without clinical trials we really don’t know if the boosters are helping or hurting. Also, we should be doing clinical trials on flu shots as well. New drugs, even if they are only slightly different still require clinical trials. Why is hacking the immune system not subject to the same scrutiny?
- nomel 4y ago
  Clearly, the flu shots are fairly established science (1945, 77 years), of a well researched virus. They're not a new form of vaccine delivery, pushed through on an emergency basis, with exclusions to testing, with legal protection against any damages for those exclusions, and 70 year trial document release plans. Could you help me understand why you think the context is so similar between the two? What's your opinion on members of the FDA leaving due to widely publicized political pressure to approve the vaccine? Do you think they were wrong for pushing back?
  - nomel 4y ago
    After re-reading this thread, the angle of this comment wasn't warranted. I apologize.

Q6T46nT668w6i3m 4y ago

Canada might be our neighbor but it’s wildly different from a population and care perspective.

canadiantim 4y ago
Why is that the case? Moderna is good for Americans under 30 but not Canadians under 30?
- edmundsauto 4y ago
  Could it be because lifestyle factors in the US put more u30 at risk of dying from Covid than in Canada? Or that the most vulnerable populations in Canada still have access to healthcare if they do need a ventilator? Genuinely hypothesizing, I am not sure of the answer but that’s what came to mind when I read your question.
  - nradov 4y ago
    Access to ventilators or lack thereof has no significant impact on death rates. Very few patients are put on ventilators now since those are considered salvage therapy only used when all else has failed. The initial focus on ventilators early in the pandemic was misguided and not based on any reliable evidence.
    - edmundsauto 4y ago
      > The initial focus on ventilators early in the pandemic was misguided and not based on any reliable evidence. Was there reliable evidence to the contrary during the initial infection window (2020)? (IE, anything showing that vents don't help)
      - TMWNN 4y ago
        Yes. <https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-...> was completely vindicated in retrospect.

atlgator 4y ago

Money in politics is the problem in the US.

serf 4y ago
it's amusing to think that US politics is the only one with that problem.
- atlgator 4y ago
  Did anyone say that?
  - x86_64Ubuntu 4y ago
    No, but then we should see more Western countries with money problems having the same issues.
    - atlgator 4y ago
      Where else in the West can you sway a country the size of Europe by funding maybe 20 influencers across the Legislative and the Executive Branches? President, VP, Speaker of the House, Senate Majority Leader, and maybe some key committee chairs and Cabinet members are really all you need. They are the playmakers. Add to that the amount of influence the US has with Western trading partners and we become a prime target for a lot more "donations" than other Western countries. Didn't Biden and Trump each spend $1B on their 2020 campaigns? Anywhere else spend that kind of money in the West? TLDR It's a matter of degrees.
      - abduhl 4y ago
        Isn’t there an ongoing scandal involving the top ranks of EU leadership regarding the Pfizer vaccine contracts and how they were procured? It seems like you don’t have to look too far in the West outside the US to find somewhere you can spend a little cash on an “influencer” to get ahead. And luckily, it’s even less people than you’d have to bribe in America plus there’s no real way for the people to get rid of someone they never voted in, even though all of Europe can smell Ursula’s corporate stink. And according to other posters in this thread, it seems like the Pfizer vaccine is the vaccine recommended broadly over the Moderna vaccine in Europe. Coincidence, I’m sure.

justsee 4y ago

In Australia it appears they're changing public messaging on vaccination for <30 yrs due to increased risk of myocarditis and lack of notable benefits[1]: "One of the nation’s top advisers on vaccination says it is unlikely young people under 30 will be approved for fourth doses, as Australia turns its attention to antiviral access to tackle yet another Omicron wave." "Former ATAGI co-chair and current member Professor Allen Cheng said the increased risk of myocarditis and the lack of notable benefit from additional boosters meant it was likely the recommended vaccine schedule for younger people would remain as is. Some are approaching a year since their booster shot." [1] https://www.smh.com.au/national/why-you-won-t-get-another-covid-shot-this-year-despite-rising-cases-20221110-p5bx78.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/why-you-won-t-get-another-co...

barbazoo 4y ago

I don't think that's true and it's not that hard to find out https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-health-products/covid19-industry/drugs-vaccines-treatments/vaccines/moderna.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-health... > Approved for: > Primary series in individuals age 6 months and older, or as a booster dose in individuals age 18 years and older (Moderna Spikevax® COVID-19 vaccine) > As a booster dose in individuals age 18 years and older (Moderna Spikevax® Bivalent COVID-19 vaccine (Original/Omicron B.1.1.529 (BA.1)) > As a booster dose in individuals age 18 years and older (Moderna Spikevax® Bivalent COVID-19 vaccine (Original/Omicron BA.4/5)