4 ms·

Basic common sense, not your keys not your coins.

by krzyk 4y ago

freejazz 4y ago
Yet, not a legal position. If it wasn't your coins, SBF taking them to do whatever he wanted with them would not be illegal.
- wizeman 4y ago
  The point is that the holder(s) of the cryptographic keys is the only one(s) that can effectively manage (and transfer) the coins on the blockchain. When you transfer the coins to a crypto exchange, the exchange becomes the holder of the keys and therefore you run into the risk of the crypto exchange mismanaging the coins, getting hacked, losing them, etc. This can't happen if you securely hold the keys yourself (with a proper hardware wallet, seed backups and a reasonable amount of OPSEC). But even in the case the crypto exchange is holding your coins (or they get stolen), legally, the coins are still yours, of course (well, unless the crypto exchange goes through bankruptcy proceedings, I suppose). But you run the risk of never getting them back even if they are legally yours. Which is why it's better to hold them yourself if you can.
  - freejazz 4y ago
    Thanks for explaining something to me that I did not require explanation of
    - wizeman 4y ago
      > Thanks for explaining something to me that I did not require explanation of It didn't seem like you understood the value of the expression "not your keys, not your coins", because you argued for the legal position, which implied that the legal position was more significant and that holding the keys didn't have as much value (even though it's the only one that actually ensures that you don't lose the coins). Another interpretation is that you understood "not your keys, not your coins" literally, because you said (paraphrasing) "no, in fact they are your coins, otherwise stealing them wouldn't be illegal". Which implies that you did not understand the meaning and utility of the expression. So maybe I misinterpreted you, or maybe you didn't express yourself as well as you think you did. Either way, you're welcome.
      - freejazz 4y ago
        I didn't argue for the legal position. I pointed out that "not your keys, not your wallet" is a trite statement that doesn't account for the reality we live in, in which property law is a thing. But very generous of you to explain it again and to do so so welcomely!!
        wizeman 4y ago
        > I pointed out that "not your keys, not your wallet" is a trite statement that doesn't account for the reality we live in, in which property law is a thing. So again, you are still interpreting the expression literally? It doesn't mean that they are not literally your coins if you don't have the keys! Do you understand this? It means that you can lose the coins forever if you don't have them securely stored yourself. It's not a literal statement, it's a concise expression that gets used repeatedly to get a very important point across unsuspecting (unexperienced, novice) crypto holders. So it's actually good that it's a trite statement, because it helps to decrease the probability of someone losing money, potentially ruining their lives unexpectedly. So that the reality is not literally what the expression says is besides the point! In fact, I've never heard of someone (besides you) that has interpreted this expression literally and actually thought that the expression means that you completely lose the ownership of the coins as soon as you transfer them into a crypto exchange. But if you want, I'm sure you can propose a better phrasing that has the same viral effect while also being literally true. > But very generous of you to explain it again and to do so so welcomely!! Glad to be of service!
        freejazz 4y ago
        >So again, you are still interpreting the expression literally? People use it literally all the time. I don't buy that people mean it figuratively. Maybe you do. But this statement is banded out so often and with no regard to the situation except where the coins are gone, it reflects little insight into the situation besides what I have pointed out. I am happy for you that you find such meaning in the statement. That you read that statement and it means, to you, so much more than what it says. > It's not a literal statement, it's a concise expression that gets used repeatedly to get a very important point across unsuspecting (unexperienced, novice) crypto holders. A group of people who just so happen to think that the crypto is somehow exempt from the law, which they reflect with statements like "not your keys, not your crypto" which is said with absolutely no reflection on how property law works. It's not as if this is even a new thing, intangible property has existed long before crypto. Yet in the crypto world, the statement which you find so meaningful goes so far!
deleted 4y ago
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vkou 4y ago
Most societies generally recognize that a person's ownership extends past the objects in his immediate use/possession. You don't give up ownership of your car, just because you parked it on the street unattended, just like I don't become the owner of it if I steal your keys.
- krzyk 4y ago
  And yet, when you give away your keys you can loose it. Look what happened with all those planes that were leased to Russia.

Basic common sense, not your keys not your coins.

by krzyk 4y ago

Basic common sense, not your keys not your coins.

Yet, not a legal position. If it wasn't your coins, SBF taking them to do whatever he wanted with them would not be illegal.

wizeman 4y ago
The point is that the holder(s) of the cryptographic keys is the only one(s) that can effectively manage (and transfer) the coins on the blockchain. When you transfer the coins to a crypto exchange, the exchange becomes the holder of the keys and therefore you run into the risk of the crypto exchange mismanaging the coins, getting hacked, losing them, etc. This can't happen if you securely hold the keys yourself (with a proper hardware wallet, seed backups and a reasonable amount of OPSEC). But even in the case the crypto exchange is holding your coins (or they get stolen), legally, the coins are still yours, of course (well, unless the crypto exchange goes through bankruptcy proceedings, I suppose). But you run the risk of never getting them back even if they are legally yours. Which is why it's better to hold them yourself if you can.
- freejazz 4y ago
  Thanks for explaining something to me that I did not require explanation of
  - wizeman 4y ago
    > Thanks for explaining something to me that I did not require explanation of It didn't seem like you understood the value of the expression "not your keys, not your coins", because you argued for the legal position, which implied that the legal position was more significant and that holding the keys didn't have as much value (even though it's the only one that actually ensures that you don't lose the coins). Another interpretation is that you understood "not your keys, not your coins" literally, because you said (paraphrasing) "no, in fact they are your coins, otherwise stealing them wouldn't be illegal". Which implies that you did not understand the meaning and utility of the expression. So maybe I misinterpreted you, or maybe you didn't express yourself as well as you think you did. Either way, you're welcome.
    - freejazz 4y ago
      I didn't argue for the legal position. I pointed out that "not your keys, not your wallet" is a trite statement that doesn't account for the reality we live in, in which property law is a thing. But very generous of you to explain it again and to do so so welcomely!!
      - wizeman 4y ago
        > I pointed out that "not your keys, not your wallet" is a trite statement that doesn't account for the reality we live in, in which property law is a thing. So again, you are still interpreting the expression literally? It doesn't mean that they are not literally your coins if you don't have the keys! Do you understand this? It means that you can lose the coins forever if you don't have them securely stored yourself. It's not a literal statement, it's a concise expression that gets used repeatedly to get a very important point across unsuspecting (unexperienced, novice) crypto holders. So it's actually good that it's a trite statement, because it helps to decrease the probability of someone losing money, potentially ruining their lives unexpectedly. So that the reality is not literally what the expression says is besides the point! In fact, I've never heard of someone (besides you) that has interpreted this expression literally and actually thought that the expression means that you completely lose the ownership of the coins as soon as you transfer them into a crypto exchange. But if you want, I'm sure you can propose a better phrasing that has the same viral effect while also being literally true. > But very generous of you to explain it again and to do so so welcomely!! Glad to be of service!
        freejazz 4y ago
        >So again, you are still interpreting the expression literally? People use it literally all the time. I don't buy that people mean it figuratively. Maybe you do. But this statement is banded out so often and with no regard to the situation except where the coins are gone, it reflects little insight into the situation besides what I have pointed out. I am happy for you that you find such meaning in the statement. That you read that statement and it means, to you, so much more than what it says. > It's not a literal statement, it's a concise expression that gets used repeatedly to get a very important point across unsuspecting (unexperienced, novice) crypto holders. A group of people who just so happen to think that the crypto is somehow exempt from the law, which they reflect with statements like "not your keys, not your crypto" which is said with absolutely no reflection on how property law works. It's not as if this is even a new thing, intangible property has existed long before crypto. Yet in the crypto world, the statement which you find so meaningful goes so far!

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

vkou 4y ago

Most societies generally recognize that a person's ownership extends past the objects in his immediate use/possession. You don't give up ownership of your car, just because you parked it on the street unattended, just like I don't become the owner of it if I steal your keys.

krzyk 4y ago
And yet, when you give away your keys you can loose it. Look what happened with all those planes that were leased to Russia.