8 ms·

Worth noting, the Florida Surgeon General's opinion was lambasted in the mainstream media as him embracing conspiracy theories (and there is some interesting ad

Worth noting, the Florida Surgeon General's opinion was lambasted in the mainstream media as him embracing conspiracy theories (and there is some interesting added context there as to why they believe so). Which... maybe two things are true at once. Perhaps he was - but also, perhaps his stance is not that radical. Radical compared to most Surgeon Generals in the United States; but on an international level? https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/10/21/florida-covid-vaccines-desantis-surgeon-general/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/10/21/florida-c... https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/health-news-florida/2022-10-12/scientists-dispute-the-floridas-surgeon-generals-latest-covid-19-vaccine-guidance-for-young-men https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/health-news-florida/2022-10-12... https://www.politico.com/news/2022/10/11/medical-experts-reject-florida-surgeon-generals-covid-vaccine-guidance-00061352 https://www.politico.com/news/2022/10/11/medical-experts-rej... https://abcnews.go.com/Health/scientists-pan-analysis-floridas-surgeon-general-posted-covid/story?id=91294952 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/scientists-pan-analysis-florid... https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/2022/10/15/they-are-right-what-floridas-surgeon-general-got-wrong-letters/ https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/2022/10/15/they-are-right-w...

busymom0 4y ago
Even the neighbouring country Canada stopped giving Moderna to people under 30 a year ago in September 2021. The CDC on the other hand is still continuing on. Clearly something is wrong in the US.
- nomel 4y ago
  It became political, causing FDA heads to resign [1] after threats [2]. And now, the latest booster was approved with no human trials at all [3]. 1. https://www.businessinsider.com/2-top-fda-officials-resigned-biden-booster-plan-reports-2021-9 https://www.businessinsider.com/2-top-fda-officials-resigned... 2. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/white-house-threatens-to-fire-fda-chief-unless-covid-vaccine-oked-friday-report.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/white-house-threatens-to-fir... 3. https://www.health.com/news/new-covid-boosters-human-testing-safety https://www.health.com/news/new-covid-boosters-human-testing...
  - jjcon 4y ago
    Flu shots don't require human trials either, should covid be all that different (genuine question) if so why?
    - walterbell 4y ago
      Flu shots were not mandated for work, study or travel.
      - jjcon 4y ago
        Is anyone requiring boosters for work, study or travel? Not to my knowledge.
        koolba 4y ago
        New York University (NYU) requires boosters for all students: https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-information/covid-related-guidance/covid-19-vaccine.html https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-...
        exodust 4y ago
        "Students may request an exemption from the vaccination requirement for medical or religious reasons" Even as an atheist, I'd be getting the religious exemption for sure! Mandating boosters for healthy young students doesn't make a lot of sense. We know now that vaccination is not the way transmission of the virus is managed.
        sfusato 4y ago
        Harvard requires all students to be up-to-date on their COVID-19 vaccinations including the bivalent Omicron-specific COVID-19 booster. https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-information/ https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-informa... Yale students will be required to get an updated, bivalent COVID-19 vaccine booster by the start of the spring semester. https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-dean/messages-dean/updated-covid-19-vaccine-booster-requirements https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-de... Tufts University followed suit on Sept. 16, announcing it would require students, staff, and faculty to get the omicron vaccine booster by Dec. 2. https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vaccinations-tufts https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vacc...
- Q6T46nT668w6i3m 4y ago
  Canada might be our neighbor but it’s wildly different from a population and care perspective.
  - canadiantim 4y ago
    Why is that the case? Moderna is good for Americans under 30 but not Canadians under 30?
    - edmundsauto 4y ago
      Could it be because lifestyle factors in the US put more u30 at risk of dying from Covid than in Canada? Or that the most vulnerable populations in Canada still have access to healthcare if they do need a ventilator? Genuinely hypothesizing, I am not sure of the answer but that’s what came to mind when I read your question.
      - nradov 4y ago
        Access to ventilators or lack thereof has no significant impact on death rates. Very few patients are put on ventilators now since those are considered salvage therapy only used when all else has failed. The initial focus on ventilators early in the pandemic was misguided and not based on any reliable evidence.
        edmundsauto 4y ago
        > The initial focus on ventilators early in the pandemic was misguided and not based on any reliable evidence. Was there reliable evidence to the contrary during the initial infection window (2020)? (IE, anything showing that vents don't help)
        TMWNN 4y ago
        Yes. <https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-...> was completely vindicated in retrospect.
- atlgator 4y ago
  Money in politics is the problem in the US.
  - serf 4y ago
    it's amusing to think that US politics is the only one with that problem.
    - atlgator 4y ago
      Did anyone say that?
      - x86_64Ubuntu 4y ago
        No, but then we should see more Western countries with money problems having the same issues.
        atlgator 4y ago
        Where else in the West can you sway a country the size of Europe by funding maybe 20 influencers across the Legislative and the Executive Branches? President, VP, Speaker of the House, Senate Majority Leader, and maybe some key committee chairs and Cabinet members are really all you need. They are the playmakers. Add to that the amount of influence the US has with Western trading partners and we become a prime target for a lot more "donations" than other Western countries. Didn't Biden and Trump each spend $1B on their 2020 campaigns? Anywhere else spend that kind of money in the West? TLDR It's a matter of degrees.
        abduhl 4y ago
        Isn’t there an ongoing scandal involving the top ranks of EU leadership regarding the Pfizer vaccine contracts and how they were procured? It seems like you don’t have to look too far in the West outside the US to find somewhere you can spend a little cash on an “influencer” to get ahead. And luckily, it’s even less people than you’d have to bribe in America plus there’s no real way for the people to get rid of someone they never voted in, even though all of Europe can smell Ursula’s corporate stink. And according to other posters in this thread, it seems like the Pfizer vaccine is the vaccine recommended broadly over the Moderna vaccine in Europe. Coincidence, I’m sure.
- justsee 4y ago
  In Australia it appears they're changing public messaging on vaccination for <30 yrs due to increased risk of myocarditis and lack of notable benefits[1]: "One of the nation’s top advisers on vaccination says it is unlikely young people under 30 will be approved for fourth doses, as Australia turns its attention to antiviral access to tackle yet another Omicron wave." "Former ATAGI co-chair and current member Professor Allen Cheng said the increased risk of myocarditis and the lack of notable benefit from additional boosters meant it was likely the recommended vaccine schedule for younger people would remain as is. Some are approaching a year since their booster shot." [1] https://www.smh.com.au/national/why-you-won-t-get-another-covid-shot-this-year-despite-rising-cases-20221110-p5bx78.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/why-you-won-t-get-another-co...
- barbazoo 4y ago
  I don't think that's true and it's not that hard to find out https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-health-products/covid19-industry/drugs-vaccines-treatments/vaccines/moderna.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-health... > Approved for: > Primary series in individuals age 6 months and older, or as a booster dose in individuals age 18 years and older (Moderna Spikevax® COVID-19 vaccine) > As a booster dose in individuals age 18 years and older (Moderna Spikevax® Bivalent COVID-19 vaccine (Original/Omicron B.1.1.529 (BA.1)) > As a booster dose in individuals age 18 years and older (Moderna Spikevax® Bivalent COVID-19 vaccine (Original/Omicron BA.4/5)
wwweston 4y ago
There's a lot of daylight between "recommendations for some higher age groups, no recommendation for lower age groups" and "recommendation against for lower age groups." The international recommendations cited above seem to be in the former category. Florida's recommendations seem to be in the latter. This might make them an outlier. Whether it makes them conspiracy theorists is another matter. If their position is sound, well, sound positions can be embraced for sound or unsound reasons. If their position is unsound, of course it will be for unsound reasons. So whether they're called conspiracy theorists matters much less than their reasons. What are their reasons? They appear to cite a large relative increase in myocarditis risk in younger men. A statistically literate response would involve asking what the absolute increase is... and the proper place to reckon with relative comparison would be vs the unvaccinated infected: https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-poses-higher-risk-for-myocarditis-than-vaccines https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-... I would absolutely recommend anyone wondering about a specific vaccination consult with a doctor or two (I do this and have had a certain class of vaccines contraindicated). But no red flags from medical pros on this one for me, and personally, even as a man outside the high-risk age groups, I can't remotely see a reason for assuming myocarditis would be a reason for avoiding the vaccine. As far as I can tell, it's almost on the order of your lifetime chance of being struck by lightning, and the chance of developing myocarditis from infection is significantly higher.
- adolph 4y ago
  Is someone a conspiracy theorist if they conjecture about conspiracies or because they conspire with others to promote a theory?
  - boppo1 4y ago
    The former. The latter would be a theory conspiracist.
  - tanseydavid 4y ago
    The term Conspiracy Theorist is a slur and a pejorative in the vast majority of cases where it is applied. Conjecturing about whether or not a particular situation might be explained by a conspiracy does NOT make one into a Conspiracy Theorist. The term Conspiracy Theorist would accurately describe someone who makes a living at it -- like Alex Jones or David Icke.
OrvalWintermute 4y ago
Florida Surgeon General CV https://www.uclahealth.org/sites/default/files/documents/Joseph-Ladapo-CV.pdf https://www.uclahealth.org/sites/default/files/documents/Jos...
- NLPlatypus 4y ago
  And Ben Carson is a neurosurgeon. So what? >Ladapo claims his analysis was based on a Florida Department of Health study showing an 84 percent increase in cardiac related deaths among men aged 18 to 39 years old within 28 days of becoming vaccinated through mRNA vaccines. Yet the medical community rejected the analysis Ladapo promoted. … > “I just cannot fathom a group of epidemiologists who would perform an investigation, looking at the risks of vaccination, and not also have performed an analysis that looked at the risks associated with the infection itself,” Salemi said. https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2022/10/11/medical-experts-reject-florida-surgeon-generals-covid-vaccine-guidance-00061352 https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2022/10/11/medical-experts...

busymom0 4y ago

Even the neighbouring country Canada stopped giving Moderna to people under 30 a year ago in September 2021. The CDC on the other hand is still continuing on. Clearly something is wrong in the US.

nomel 4y ago
It became political, causing FDA heads to resign [1] after threats [2]. And now, the latest booster was approved with no human trials at all [3]. 1. https://www.businessinsider.com/2-top-fda-officials-resigned-biden-booster-plan-reports-2021-9 https://www.businessinsider.com/2-top-fda-officials-resigned... 2. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/white-house-threatens-to-fire-fda-chief-unless-covid-vaccine-oked-friday-report.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/white-house-threatens-to-fir... 3. https://www.health.com/news/new-covid-boosters-human-testing-safety https://www.health.com/news/new-covid-boosters-human-testing...
- jjcon 4y ago
  Flu shots don't require human trials either, should covid be all that different (genuine question) if so why?
  - walterbell 4y ago
    Flu shots were not mandated for work, study or travel.
    - jjcon 4y ago
      Is anyone requiring boosters for work, study or travel? Not to my knowledge.
      - koolba 4y ago
        New York University (NYU) requires boosters for all students: https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-information/covid-related-guidance/covid-19-vaccine.html https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-...
        exodust 4y ago
        "Students may request an exemption from the vaccination requirement for medical or religious reasons" Even as an atheist, I'd be getting the religious exemption for sure! Mandating boosters for healthy young students doesn't make a lot of sense. We know now that vaccination is not the way transmission of the virus is managed.
      - sfusato 4y ago
        Harvard requires all students to be up-to-date on their COVID-19 vaccinations including the bivalent Omicron-specific COVID-19 booster. https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-information/ https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-informa... Yale students will be required to get an updated, bivalent COVID-19 vaccine booster by the start of the spring semester. https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-dean/messages-dean/updated-covid-19-vaccine-booster-requirements https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-de... Tufts University followed suit on Sept. 16, announcing it would require students, staff, and faculty to get the omicron vaccine booster by Dec. 2. https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vaccinations-tufts https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vacc...
Q6T46nT668w6i3m 4y ago
Canada might be our neighbor but it’s wildly different from a population and care perspective.
- canadiantim 4y ago
  Why is that the case? Moderna is good for Americans under 30 but not Canadians under 30?
  - edmundsauto 4y ago
    Could it be because lifestyle factors in the US put more u30 at risk of dying from Covid than in Canada? Or that the most vulnerable populations in Canada still have access to healthcare if they do need a ventilator? Genuinely hypothesizing, I am not sure of the answer but that’s what came to mind when I read your question.
    - nradov 4y ago
      Access to ventilators or lack thereof has no significant impact on death rates. Very few patients are put on ventilators now since those are considered salvage therapy only used when all else has failed. The initial focus on ventilators early in the pandemic was misguided and not based on any reliable evidence.
      - edmundsauto 4y ago
        > The initial focus on ventilators early in the pandemic was misguided and not based on any reliable evidence. Was there reliable evidence to the contrary during the initial infection window (2020)? (IE, anything showing that vents don't help)
        TMWNN 4y ago
        Yes. <https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-...> was completely vindicated in retrospect.
atlgator 4y ago
Money in politics is the problem in the US.
- serf 4y ago
  it's amusing to think that US politics is the only one with that problem.
  - atlgator 4y ago
    Did anyone say that?
    - x86_64Ubuntu 4y ago
      No, but then we should see more Western countries with money problems having the same issues.
      - atlgator 4y ago
        Where else in the West can you sway a country the size of Europe by funding maybe 20 influencers across the Legislative and the Executive Branches? President, VP, Speaker of the House, Senate Majority Leader, and maybe some key committee chairs and Cabinet members are really all you need. They are the playmakers. Add to that the amount of influence the US has with Western trading partners and we become a prime target for a lot more "donations" than other Western countries. Didn't Biden and Trump each spend $1B on their 2020 campaigns? Anywhere else spend that kind of money in the West? TLDR It's a matter of degrees.
        abduhl 4y ago
        Isn’t there an ongoing scandal involving the top ranks of EU leadership regarding the Pfizer vaccine contracts and how they were procured? It seems like you don’t have to look too far in the West outside the US to find somewhere you can spend a little cash on an “influencer” to get ahead. And luckily, it’s even less people than you’d have to bribe in America plus there’s no real way for the people to get rid of someone they never voted in, even though all of Europe can smell Ursula’s corporate stink. And according to other posters in this thread, it seems like the Pfizer vaccine is the vaccine recommended broadly over the Moderna vaccine in Europe. Coincidence, I’m sure.
justsee 4y ago
In Australia it appears they're changing public messaging on vaccination for <30 yrs due to increased risk of myocarditis and lack of notable benefits[1]: "One of the nation’s top advisers on vaccination says it is unlikely young people under 30 will be approved for fourth doses, as Australia turns its attention to antiviral access to tackle yet another Omicron wave." "Former ATAGI co-chair and current member Professor Allen Cheng said the increased risk of myocarditis and the lack of notable benefit from additional boosters meant it was likely the recommended vaccine schedule for younger people would remain as is. Some are approaching a year since their booster shot." [1] https://www.smh.com.au/national/why-you-won-t-get-another-covid-shot-this-year-despite-rising-cases-20221110-p5bx78.html https://www.smh.com.au/national/why-you-won-t-get-another-co...
barbazoo 4y ago
I don't think that's true and it's not that hard to find out https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-health-products/covid19-industry/drugs-vaccines-treatments/vaccines/moderna.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-health... > Approved for: > Primary series in individuals age 6 months and older, or as a booster dose in individuals age 18 years and older (Moderna Spikevax® COVID-19 vaccine) > As a booster dose in individuals age 18 years and older (Moderna Spikevax® Bivalent COVID-19 vaccine (Original/Omicron B.1.1.529 (BA.1)) > As a booster dose in individuals age 18 years and older (Moderna Spikevax® Bivalent COVID-19 vaccine (Original/Omicron BA.4/5)

wwweston 4y ago

There's a lot of daylight between "recommendations for some higher age groups, no recommendation for lower age groups" and "recommendation against for lower age groups." The international recommendations cited above seem to be in the former category. Florida's recommendations seem to be in the latter. This might make them an outlier. Whether it makes them conspiracy theorists is another matter. If their position is sound, well, sound positions can be embraced for sound or unsound reasons. If their position is unsound, of course it will be for unsound reasons. So whether they're called conspiracy theorists matters much less than their reasons. What are their reasons? They appear to cite a large relative increase in myocarditis risk in younger men. A statistically literate response would involve asking what the absolute increase is... and the proper place to reckon with relative comparison would be vs the unvaccinated infected: https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-poses-higher-risk-for-myocarditis-than-vaccines https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-... I would absolutely recommend anyone wondering about a specific vaccination consult with a doctor or two (I do this and have had a certain class of vaccines contraindicated). But no red flags from medical pros on this one for me, and personally, even as a man outside the high-risk age groups, I can't remotely see a reason for assuming myocarditis would be a reason for avoiding the vaccine. As far as I can tell, it's almost on the order of your lifetime chance of being struck by lightning, and the chance of developing myocarditis from infection is significantly higher.

adolph 4y ago
Is someone a conspiracy theorist if they conjecture about conspiracies or because they conspire with others to promote a theory?
- boppo1 4y ago
  The former. The latter would be a theory conspiracist.
- tanseydavid 4y ago
  The term Conspiracy Theorist is a slur and a pejorative in the vast majority of cases where it is applied. Conjecturing about whether or not a particular situation might be explained by a conspiracy does NOT make one into a Conspiracy Theorist. The term Conspiracy Theorist would accurately describe someone who makes a living at it -- like Alex Jones or David Icke.

OrvalWintermute 4y ago

Florida Surgeon General CV https://www.uclahealth.org/sites/default/files/documents/Joseph-Ladapo-CV.pdf https://www.uclahealth.org/sites/default/files/documents/Jos...

NLPlatypus 4y ago
And Ben Carson is a neurosurgeon. So what? >Ladapo claims his analysis was based on a Florida Department of Health study showing an 84 percent increase in cardiac related deaths among men aged 18 to 39 years old within 28 days of becoming vaccinated through mRNA vaccines. Yet the medical community rejected the analysis Ladapo promoted. … > “I just cannot fathom a group of epidemiologists who would perform an investigation, looking at the risks of vaccination, and not also have performed an analysis that looked at the risks associated with the infection itself,” Salemi said. https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2022/10/11/medical-experts-reject-florida-surgeon-generals-covid-vaccine-guidance-00061352 https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2022/10/11/medical-experts...