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As long as you‘re not financially profiting from the project, the legislation does not affect you. The moment you do financially profit of it (for example, if y

As long as you‘re not financially profiting from the project, the legislation does not affect you. The moment you do financially profit of it (for example, if you have a business around it, or the software is developed by a business), then things get a little more complicated - if you have no clients in the EU and don‘t market or sell to the EU, you can mostly just ignore this. If you do, then you probably have to care about this.

gwnywg 4y ago
OK, so to my untrained eye it looks like putting a road block for small software startups..
- nivenkos 4y ago
  Yeah, and you can bet the audits will just be some box-ticking nonsense like always.
- can16358p 4y ago
  As if GDPR hasn't put enough already.
  - gwnywg 4y ago
    I thought about that after writing my comment...
  - kwhitefoot 4y ago
    FUD. Unless you are asking for personal data that is not necessary to provide the service the GDPR doesn't affect you or require you to do anything.
    - can16358p 4y ago
      False. In many cases you might be collecting it in the first place without realizing it (e.g. Analytics). Also it's a problem for developing anything to spend a lot of thinking "would this violate GDPR" instead of actual creative thinking and development. I don't remember how many DAYS we've collectively lost in all the apps we're making, to make sure we comply with GDPR instead of focusing on productivity.
      - kwhitefoot 4y ago
        You are collecting analytics without realizing it?
- blibble 4y ago
  that's what the EU does all legislation is designed for Mittelstand (medium sized german companies) tax, privacy, communications, employment, now software this was seen with the VAT changes: it was raised that this would badly affect small companies, so they passed the legislation then penciled a meeting in for 3 years time to maybe think about small companies in general: if you're a small company: fuck you
piskerpan 4y ago
Is a 10€ donation profit? Is a recurring 900€ donation profit? I already have to pay taxes on these donations. Donors get “perks” for the donations, so the receiver is essentially selling these perks and services. At what point am I responsible for every single module I’ve ever produced because I received X000€ in donations this year?
- eastbound 4y ago
  Is having your name on a project “profiteering”? Is publishing a project to sustain the reputation of a conference speaker made as a sidekick, profiteering?
- that_guy_iain 4y ago
  Yes. All money is profitting, doesn't matter if it's a donation or a sale.
  - Xylakant 4y ago
    That is not true - donations are not usually considered profit, at least in Germany. They occupy a bit a weird middle ground. They may count as income, but for example donations we receive for the open source projects that our company runs are VAT exempt. However, it must be true donations and not provide material benefit - if the donations provide any substantial benefit (priority when considering features or bug fixes, access to special features, …), then it‘s no longer donations but services. Things like a mention on a supporter page, occasional swag and stickers, … are usually fine. As always, talks to your tax accountant about your specific case, this is not legal or tax advice, …
    - that_guy_iain 4y ago
      You seem to be conflating being eligible for vat with income that would qualify as “profiting”. Profiting just means you benefitted. And taxable income is nearly always profiting.
- throwaway294566 4y ago
iso1631 4y ago
Say I'm an EU company. I use a small bit of GPL code in the course of my business, and I see a problem with it, so I change the code, fix the bug/add a feature/etc, push it back, does that count profiting from it? I could instead not push it back, which is less immediate risk
tomschlick 4y ago
> if you have no clients in the EU and don‘t market or sell to the EU, you can mostly just ignore this If you're not located in the EU, what can they really do even if you do have paying clients in the EU?
- Xylakant 4y ago
  Go after your clients or the money the clients send you.
  - tomschlick 4y ago
    So it sounds like there is no point to comply ahead of time as if they do come after you they would just get future payments in which case you can close up sales in that region.
    - beebeepka 4y ago
      Someone tried this recently. We even had agt least one discussion on it. Someone with better memory could chime. Mine isn't great
Sakos 4y ago
You're saying this so definitively even though you can't know that what you're saying is true, based on the article: > In order not to hamper innovation or research, free and open-source software developed or supplied outside the course of a commercial activity should not be covered by this Regulation. [..] > Commercial activity is understood as providing goods in a business related context. Non-profit organisations may be considered as carrying out commercial activities if they operate in such a context. This can only be appreciated on a case by case basis taking into account the regularity of the supplies, the characteristics of the product, the intentions of the supplier, etc. In principle, occasional supplies by charities or hobbyists should not be considered as taking place in a business related context. > Open-source software is provided both within and outside of business related contexts. And the 'occasional supplies' exception in this quote seems to be of limited use to projects society comes to depend on. Would you consider an open-source operating system (MINIX) that has been freely available for 35 years an 'occasional supply'? What does its integration in all Intel processors since 2015 mean for being 'goods' outside a 'business related context'? How about the BIND project, a staple of open-source core Internet infrastructure shipping for 40 years? This feels like a huge issue to me and that's before considering how most OSS we use everyday is worked on by full-time employees as a part of their jobs.
- ohgodplsno 4y ago
  If you release TerminatorOS which is an experimental OS for AIs hellbent on destroying the world, you are fine. If someone uses TerminatorOS and you did not sell it to them, they will be responsible for its use, you are fine. If you start terminator.io, a startup that sells TerminatorOS powered drones that shoot you in the face, you are not fine and need to comply. In the same way, if BIND starts BIND.io to sell Bind-as-a-Service, then they'll have to be compliant. If BIND is found to be ran at 90% by AWS with AWS paid employees, they won't need to be compliant. Otherwise, you'll be fine. Source: this is not the US, European law takes context into account.
  - michaelt 4y ago
    What if I've already released TerminatorOS for free and would prefer not to leave my users in the EU high and dry, but I also don't want to start a business or spend my free time dealing with legalese while getting nothing in return?
magicalhippo 4y ago
> As long as you‘re not financially profiting from the project, the legislation does not affect you. As highlighted in the article, "commercial activity" is what triggers the legislation, not profit, and it's a broader concept. Note also this section on page 34: ‘making available on the market’ means any supply of a product with digital elements for distribution or use on the Union market in the course of a commercial activity, whether in return for payment or free of charge;
nonethewiser 4y ago
By "profit" do we mean turning a profit? Or simply charging for your service?

gwnywg 4y ago

OK, so to my untrained eye it looks like putting a road block for small software startups..

nivenkos 4y ago
Yeah, and you can bet the audits will just be some box-ticking nonsense like always.
can16358p 4y ago
As if GDPR hasn't put enough already.
- gwnywg 4y ago
  I thought about that after writing my comment...
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  FUD. Unless you are asking for personal data that is not necessary to provide the service the GDPR doesn't affect you or require you to do anything.
  - can16358p 4y ago
    False. In many cases you might be collecting it in the first place without realizing it (e.g. Analytics). Also it's a problem for developing anything to spend a lot of thinking "would this violate GDPR" instead of actual creative thinking and development. I don't remember how many DAYS we've collectively lost in all the apps we're making, to make sure we comply with GDPR instead of focusing on productivity.
    - kwhitefoot 4y ago
      You are collecting analytics without realizing it?
blibble 4y ago
that's what the EU does all legislation is designed for Mittelstand (medium sized german companies) tax, privacy, communications, employment, now software this was seen with the VAT changes: it was raised that this would badly affect small companies, so they passed the legislation then penciled a meeting in for 3 years time to maybe think about small companies in general: if you're a small company: fuck you

piskerpan 4y ago

Is a 10€ donation profit? Is a recurring 900€ donation profit? I already have to pay taxes on these donations. Donors get “perks” for the donations, so the receiver is essentially selling these perks and services. At what point am I responsible for every single module I’ve ever produced because I received X000€ in donations this year?

eastbound 4y ago
Is having your name on a project “profiteering”? Is publishing a project to sustain the reputation of a conference speaker made as a sidekick, profiteering?
that_guy_iain 4y ago
Yes. All money is profitting, doesn't matter if it's a donation or a sale.
- Xylakant 4y ago
  That is not true - donations are not usually considered profit, at least in Germany. They occupy a bit a weird middle ground. They may count as income, but for example donations we receive for the open source projects that our company runs are VAT exempt. However, it must be true donations and not provide material benefit - if the donations provide any substantial benefit (priority when considering features or bug fixes, access to special features, …), then it‘s no longer donations but services. Things like a mention on a supporter page, occasional swag and stickers, … are usually fine. As always, talks to your tax accountant about your specific case, this is not legal or tax advice, …
  - that_guy_iain 4y ago
    You seem to be conflating being eligible for vat with income that would qualify as “profiting”. Profiting just means you benefitted. And taxable income is nearly always profiting.
throwaway294566 4y ago

iso1631 4y ago

Say I'm an EU company. I use a small bit of GPL code in the course of my business, and I see a problem with it, so I change the code, fix the bug/add a feature/etc, push it back, does that count profiting from it? I could instead not push it back, which is less immediate risk

tomschlick 4y ago

> if you have no clients in the EU and don‘t market or sell to the EU, you can mostly just ignore this If you're not located in the EU, what can they really do even if you do have paying clients in the EU?

Xylakant 4y ago
Go after your clients or the money the clients send you.
- tomschlick 4y ago
  So it sounds like there is no point to comply ahead of time as if they do come after you they would just get future payments in which case you can close up sales in that region.
  - beebeepka 4y ago
    Someone tried this recently. We even had agt least one discussion on it. Someone with better memory could chime. Mine isn't great

Sakos 4y ago

You're saying this so definitively even though you can't know that what you're saying is true, based on the article: > In order not to hamper innovation or research, free and open-source software developed or supplied outside the course of a commercial activity should not be covered by this Regulation. [..] > Commercial activity is understood as providing goods in a business related context. Non-profit organisations may be considered as carrying out commercial activities if they operate in such a context. This can only be appreciated on a case by case basis taking into account the regularity of the supplies, the characteristics of the product, the intentions of the supplier, etc. In principle, occasional supplies by charities or hobbyists should not be considered as taking place in a business related context. > Open-source software is provided both within and outside of business related contexts. And the 'occasional supplies' exception in this quote seems to be of limited use to projects society comes to depend on. Would you consider an open-source operating system (MINIX) that has been freely available for 35 years an 'occasional supply'? What does its integration in all Intel processors since 2015 mean for being 'goods' outside a 'business related context'? How about the BIND project, a staple of open-source core Internet infrastructure shipping for 40 years? This feels like a huge issue to me and that's before considering how most OSS we use everyday is worked on by full-time employees as a part of their jobs.

ohgodplsno 4y ago
If you release TerminatorOS which is an experimental OS for AIs hellbent on destroying the world, you are fine. If someone uses TerminatorOS and you did not sell it to them, they will be responsible for its use, you are fine. If you start terminator.io, a startup that sells TerminatorOS powered drones that shoot you in the face, you are not fine and need to comply. In the same way, if BIND starts BIND.io to sell Bind-as-a-Service, then they'll have to be compliant. If BIND is found to be ran at 90% by AWS with AWS paid employees, they won't need to be compliant. Otherwise, you'll be fine. Source: this is not the US, European law takes context into account.
- michaelt 4y ago
  What if I've already released TerminatorOS for free and would prefer not to leave my users in the EU high and dry, but I also don't want to start a business or spend my free time dealing with legalese while getting nothing in return?

magicalhippo 4y ago

> As long as you‘re not financially profiting from the project, the legislation does not affect you. As highlighted in the article, "commercial activity" is what triggers the legislation, not profit, and it's a broader concept. Note also this section on page 34: ‘making available on the market’ means any supply of a product with digital elements for distribution or use on the Union market in the course of a commercial activity, whether in return for payment or free of charge;

nonethewiser 4y ago

By "profit" do we mean turning a profit? Or simply charging for your service?