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Proposed class action alleges that Apple tracks users despite privacy assurances

333 points by larrysalibra 4y ago

hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
Finally. There is no reason they should get away with that.
tssge 4y ago
No wonder, at work we noticed all of our Macs collected ad personalization data by default. Even when installing from fresh, there was never a prompt asking whether one consents to ad personalization data being collected or not, it was just enabled by default in system settings Also we are within the EU, IANAL but to me this seems like an obvious violation of GDPR.
- voidee 4y ago
  I’m curious, is there a URL block list for Apple analytics? Or would blocking telemetry interfere with receiving updates and using services.
  - dbmnt 4y ago
    There are quite a few advertising and tracking domains you can safely block without any negative impacts to Apple devices. Parsing my logs at NextDNS (nextdns.io), the domains below are the most commonly blocked. It looks like most of the popular blocklists, including the default NextDNS blocklist, already include these domains. *.iadsdk.apple.com api-adservices.apple.com news.iadsdk.apple.com stocks-analytics-events.apple.com weather-analytics-events.apple.com
tarentel 4y ago
It's not exactly clear to me based on the article or the ones linked if they are out of line with their own privacy policy. Denying app tracking on a specific app doesn't actually prevent the app developer from collecting analytics data. If they are breaking their own rules that's not entirely surprising and hopefully they are forced to follow them as well. It is kind of sketchy that they have a way to turn off "device" analytics which one would assume is tied to apple's apps but that doesn't seem to be the case.
- sp332 4y ago
  It might not violate the fine print, but if their advertising or other official communications give the wrong idea, they could still be on the hook for misleading customers.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 4y ago
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nowherebeen 4y ago
Some middle manager at Apple is shitting themselves right now for causing this.
- michael1999 4y ago
  The Cossacks work for the Czar.
  - michael1999 4y ago
    Tim Cook has been great for my bank account, and terrible for my life.
ezfe 4y ago
> Even when consumers follow Apple's own instructions and turn off "Allow Apps to Request to Track" and/or "Share [Device] Analytics" on their privacy controls Reading the description in Settings for both of these switches, we learn the following: 1. Allow Apps to Request to Track specifically "Allow[s] apps to ask to track your activity across other companies' apps and websites." This clause clearly doesn't apply to any internal analytics process. 2. Share [Device] Analytics is a bigger issue, and is the problem. The switch says that it sends information about how the user uses the operating system and Apple services. That clearly includes the App Store, so switching this off should switch off App Store analytics. Including the first point seems stupid, since it muddies the claim against Apple. A note about the App Store privacy information. It (separately) indicates that they collect the information this article alleges - so Apple IS disclosing it. However that doesn't change the fact that the Analytics toggle reasonably seems to apply to the App Store as well.
- helsinkiandrew 4y ago
  > Share [Device] Analytics is a bigger issue, and is the problem Personally, I've always assumed that Device analytics (which I always turn off) referred to iOS, device and network performance, what apps are launched and crash etc. and that it didn't cover in app usage analytics. The description is a little vague: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/device-analytics/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/device-analytics... But the App Store privacy notes still state they record usage so they can personalise ads (which are optional) and show trending apps and searches etc (I think not optional)
- dkonofalski 4y ago
  I don't think I agree with your assessment of this for the following reasons: 1. Nothing here is being tracked "across other companies apps and websites", unless there's something here that shows Apple is cross-pollinating their data internally (which is possible but I don't see any evidence for here). 2. I disagree that this includes "App Store" app. The description given when you click the "About Analytics & Privacy" link explicitly states what the differentiation is and, to me, that does not include the App Store app.
throwaway82388 4y ago
The most persuasive argument for Apple as trustworthy on privacy was weak: that because they didn’t monetize data as rapaciously as Google or Meta, there was less incentive for them to spy on users. But once they introduced new privacy controls, they seemed to suddenly start investing more seriously in their own advertising network. That, and the encryption slight-of-hand with iCloud, makes the cynic’s case for them. App telemetry, metrics, etc might get handwaved away with a sinister phrase, like “essential for improving user experience.” But placing trust in a company on privacy due to the relative lack of financial incentive seems hopelessly naive.
- gw98 4y ago
  Yeah this one has pissed me off generally. I'm slowly working out how the hell I get out of the ecosystem but I realise I'm heavily locked in and it's difficult so I'm going to have to do it very slowly and methodically. Edit: just bought a desktop PC off ebay which I will install Ubuntu on and see how I get on.
  - cowtools 4y ago
    not trying to start a distro war, but I would advise against using ubuntu for the time being as their custodian has been somewhat incompetent in recent years, and they have been forcing users to use their "snap" system. It may give you a bad first experience.
    - ksidudwbw 4y ago
      this path has been partially trodden, elementaryOS. The first versions were snappy don't know now.
    - gw98 4y ago
      Thanks for the heads up. Have dealt with snap before (and eviserated it)
      - adra 4y ago
aliqot 4y ago
I'm starting to think nobody reads the things they click "I Agree" to. The terms of the agreement are right there but you can't say you 'didnt know' if you agree to them without reading.
- Loughla 4y ago
  You're just starting to think that? They're massively long, convoluted, legalese documents. It's literally a cultural joke that no-one reads those. I believe there needs to be a change in how terms and conditions are written - people need bullet points. By clicking "I Agree", the user (you) agrees that: 1. [COMPANY] can sell your data to third-parties. This data includes [x, y, z] 2. [COMPANY] will retain your data for [X YEARS] 3. [COMPANY] will allow you to delete your data by visiting [WEBSITE] That sort of thing. People don't read; right, wrong, or indifferent, people don't read. They especially don't read convoluted, exceedingly long terms and conditions that they HAVE to accept to use a product.
  - aliqot 4y ago
    > It's literally a cultural joke that no-one reads those I read every single document I sign my name to, every time. I'm not alone either. I assume we're mostly engineers here, some of us maybe are involved in contractual things, so tell me: in your job do you sign your business's name or your own name as Officer to contracts you haven't read? Now tell me, if work is less important than your personal affairs why on earth would you review the terms for work agreements, but not for yourself? If I agreed to contracts without reading them in a job context, I'd be in the unemployment line so fast the IRS would send me their condolences.
    - itsyaboi 4y ago
      What is your strategy when it comes to updates? Say you hop into your Tesla, see a pending software update and are prompted with a EULA type document. Do spend the next hour reviewing it before accepting? Assuming you are an engineer and not a legal expert, do you consult with a lawyer about ambiguous wording or clauses? How do you repeat this x100 for all of the software embedded in your life? This has to be a joke, right?
sirius87 4y ago
First thought that popped into my head was Zuck in his VR avatar chomping on a tub of virtual popcorn reading this saying, "Send this man a bouquet". Won't be long before shady lawsuits along similar lines follow. It will soon be more about tapering Apple's ad-network ambitions than genuine concern about user privacy.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Not Apple’s ad-network ambitions!
ksec 4y ago
Apple will probably get away with that as it is all in the fine print. But, 1. Let's not forget vast majority ( if not all ) of people on the Internet, inclusive but not limited to Main-steam Media, HN, Reddit and Twitter who commented between 2017 and 2021 thought privacy meant anonymous. And before anyone disagree, very very few on HN even bother to downvote or stand up against the notion of privacy meant anonymous. 2. Apple play this card, both in PR and marketing, along with media ( Submarine Article or not ) as a tool against Facebook. Or Social Media but let's be honest we all know they mean Facebook. And of course, for people from US, after 2016 Facebook is the most evil company on planet earth. Any Facebook bashing equals great. 3. A lot of people were brought into the idea of privacy meant anonymous. So in other settings, Apple use the word "personalised" instead of Data Collection, cough, I mean tracking. 4. The good thing about all of these, anything illogical will have to unfold some day. ( Just like Crypto ) Apple of course collect Data from you. Apple of course has all the Data about your usage pattern. So when some people came to realise privacy doesn't mean anonymous, I guess they aren't so happy? 5. Apple's true definition of privacy is that All Apple's user Data belongs to Apple. Any data to third party are by definition "Tracking". Since Privacy is a Fundamental Human Right, I guess the only choice is to give Apple all your Data? 6. Most people, especially tech nerds will likely play the I trust Apple more than Google card. Because Apple are not in the Ad business! - That was 2017 to 2021 if not 2022. They have their ads business right infront of you for a long time. They have been preparing their Ads business for a long time. Most tech nerds, or Apple apologist just turns a blind eye to it.
- nowherebeen 4y ago
  > Because Apple are not in the Ad business! - That was 2017 to 2021 if not 2022. They have their ads business right infront of you for a long time. If you look at their careers page, they have been hiring quite a few adtech talent in Texas for the last half year. I won't be surprised they are waiting for their competitors to die off before swooping in. Corporate strategy and PR teams deserves a raise.
- kjreact 4y ago
  > 5. Apple's true definition of privacy is that All Apple's user Data belongs to Apple. Any data to third party are by definition "Tracking". Since Privacy is a Fundamental Human Right, I guess the only choice is to give Apple all your Data? Are we so naive to believe that we are not be tracked by the big tech companies all the time? If I use Office 365 Microsoft knows about my document writing habits and may be privy to company secrets if I had to write some sensitive company memos. Google has the vast majority of my email if not all since so much email goes through their mail servers. Even if I avoid using GMail, I can’t stop my contacts from doing so. Google knows all my search habits as well. Amazon knows my spending habits, the list goes on and on. And then there are the traditional means of tracking someone via credit card expenditures or your cell phone provider knowing your whereabouts and usage patterns. You give away tracking data all the time. The issue is how these companies use that data. If they are doing something nefarious like what Cambridge Analytica did then we should be outraged. Otherwise it’s just hypocrisy to play the blame game on any one company.
pannSun 4y ago
> The researchers uncovered these findings using a jailbroken iPhone running iOS 14.6. Notably, while the team discovered similar iPhone activity on a non-jailbroken phone running iOS 16, the data was encrypted and it was therefore not possible to determine exactly what it contained. And this is why "security" to prevent user control or even knowledge of "their" devices is so important.
runjake 4y ago
My hope is that this case or another uncovers just how much user tracking Apple does. It is a lot more than people know. And the efforts to "de-anonymize" collected data are laughable and not de-anonymized, and there is no real oversight for compliance. But that's all I am going to say on that.
- tarentel 4y ago
  I don't think it's surprising to anyone how much apple tracks its own users. They actually have a page on it and what they're tracking, https://www.apple.com/privacy/labels/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/labels/. It's also clearly stated that a lot of data collected isn't anonymized at all. You're right there is no oversight for compliance to their own terms and that is the real issue. It is also an issue if they're getting a competitive edge by bypassing their own rules. It wouldn't be surprising to me if they were but based on the articles there isn't a whole lot of proof.
  - runnerup 4y ago
    I'm somewhat surprised. I had bought into the "all machine-learning is done on-device" messaging and thought that Apple Maps was taking pains to anonymize data by only sending small chunks of your route data for traffic congestion analysis/etc. When Apple was starting their machine learning division I'd heard they had trouble retaining top talent because the engineers would show up and "okay! where's the data?" and Apple would reply "uhh, we don't have any it all stays on-device". But with Apple getting into advertising I don't think this could stay this way, if it ever actually was in the first place.
    - fibers 4y ago
      then what is the point of having such a powerful processor on device?
  - FireBeyond 4y ago
    > It is also an issue if they're getting a competitive edge by bypassing their own rules. And it's not like that would be the first time they've done that. Pretty common on all sorts of levels. My "favorite" was the ability of Apple apps on macOS to bypass most of the TCP/IP stack and send traffic directly, regardless of on-device filtering or firewalling. Apple claimed it was "a temporary measure while they dealt with updating software", but I'm still at a loss to explain why an app like TextEdit would have ever needed a kernel network extension in the first place. That to me was almost certainly a post-facto attempt at justification when they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
beders 4y ago
Happy to be tracked. Whatever that means. This is a for-profit organization, so I expect it to behave that way. Which includes maximizing profits made by showing ads to end-users. I really don't care. The benefits I derive from being inside this walled garden outweigh any 'privacy' concerns. You don't have privacy on the internet anyways. Your data is not safe on the internet. You can influence the price tag adversaries need to pay to access your data, but that's it. In short: Hardly a surprise and compared to the competition Apple is going for a good balance.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  What you are saying is:"Privacy exists only for the people who can afford it."
zahma 4y ago
Obviously the case even without Mysk’s research. Apple’s vision for the future is the walled garden of tech utopia. It makes sense that they want data to retain users and lock them in further to the brand. It’s so devilishly hypocritical to track users and pass it off as normal business practice when they have clearly positioned themselves as the defenders of user privacy against the likes of Alphabet and Meta. Alas, I’m typing this in an iPhone because I don’t know of another viable option for now.
- h4waii 4y ago
  Google Pixel + GrapheneOS is an excellent alternative to an iPhone in terms of usability, privacy, and security, and hardware + software longevity. I know it seems weird to recommend a Google phone, but one can completely eschew the issues around Google tracking, by not using Google services, or using them within the on-device sandbox giving them standard privileges.
- simonh 4y ago
  The distinction is that Apple doesn't monetise your data by sharing it with third party companies. Personally I'm fine with a company I choose to do business with storing information about me and about how I interact with their services. It just seems obvious that they will need to do this in order to provide their services. I understand that some of this info may be more than the strictly necessary minimum, but I have no evidence so far that any of this info has been used for purposes I consider nefarious. If they do, ok I'll reconsider. I do understand the argument that they're providing an option to opt out of tracking, and that some of this data appears to be what is reasonably considered tracking info. That's a potential concern, sure, but again are they actually using this for anything I'd consider nefarious? If so then again I'm interested, but if not then ok, they should stop doing it, but that's as far as my interest goes.
  - guhidalg 4y ago
    Using the data to target ads is as good as sharing it with third party companies. Apple is monetizing you, ostensibly at some point they can just stop making products and survive by advertisers paying to advertise on Apple devices with perfect accuracy given the data Apple has on all of us.
helsinkiandrew 4y ago
I'm confused - the article (and what I read of the suit) seems to be using the term "Tracking" for both tracking users across other companies apps and websites (what Apple lets you opt out of) and recording users interaction inside an app. They are very different - there's over a million websites that use Hotjar alone (which sounds similar to what Apple is recording in App), and every news site will record how many view people read each article if not using some analytics front end JS code to read for how long for. Macrumours.com itself is using Google Analytics, and the suit it links to is using Adobe Analytics which do much the same. From what the article says I don't see how this breaks any of the Apples "Anti Tracking" policies - I'm not saying they're not recording too much just that it doesn't break their policies.
roody15 4y ago
Two weeks ago I attended an Apple Event for Government and Education in Chicago. From my perspective was absolutely alarmed at how open they were about tracking data and sharing. I think their marketing on "privacy" was dishonest at the least. Apple puts constant pressure on the user to use an iCloud account. Apple puts constant pressure to manage apple Devices with a MDM profile based system. In both cases user privacy is lost.
- amf12 4y ago
  > I think their marketing on "privacy" was dishonest at the least. > Apple puts constant pressure on the user to use an iCloud account. I do think Apple's use of the term "privacy" is not completely honest. But we should note the difference between privacy and anonymity. Using iCloud provides privacy for the user; that is, Apple won't access your iCloud data. It is not however anonymous.
kernal 4y ago
What an odd take for Apple. If they really respected user privacy they would cancel their ad business stop the collection and monetization of user data. Their insatiable quest for revenue has destroyed the primary reason you should buy an Apple product. Apple has crossed the Rubicon and their image is forever tarnished for the sake of adding additional percentage points to their quarterly revenue. What once differentiated Apple from Google, Amazon and Facebook no longer exists. I can't imagine Steve ever going down this road.
SpaceManNabs 4y ago
People were critiquing microsoft for the ads in the start menu or wtv menu. How long till we see ads in iphones?
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  Plenty of ads in core apps already. I would say that App Store ads are "ads in the iPhone". You also get a bunch of nags in Settings to enable Siri and FaceID features when you get a fresh iPhone or apply a major update. I consider these ads. Probably the least intrusive type of ad, but still.
gigel82 4y ago
I'm happy that these sort of posts are actually getting some traction on Hacker News these days. Up until 3-4 months ago, I was still getting pummeled with downvotes and flags if I even suggested Apple are hypocrites building an ad empire.
dang 4y ago
Url changed from https://www.macrumors.com/2022/11/14/apple-class-action-user-tracking-allegations/ https://www.macrumors.com/2022/11/14/apple-class-action-user..., which points to this. Submitters: "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
_8j50 4y ago
Yeah, I don't care what mobile phone it is, I don't trust it with respect to privacy. I have to use a phone for apps like uber and I use one to browse random content like HN that has no privacy issue for me if the world saw most stuff I read but I have moved away all other use cases to a simpler harderned Linux laptop. It feels a bit weird and more isolated with that plus no social media but I have seen improvments in my quality of life and I have confidence that the handful of privacy or securiry sensitive data or interactions I have are difficult to compromise.

333 points by larrysalibra 4y ago

Finally. There is no reason they should get away with that.

No wonder, at work we noticed all of our Macs collected ad personalization data by default. Even when installing from fresh, there was never a prompt asking whether one consents to ad personalization data being collected or not, it was just enabled by default in system settings Also we are within the EU, IANAL but to me this seems like an obvious violation of GDPR.

voidee 4y ago
I’m curious, is there a URL block list for Apple analytics? Or would blocking telemetry interfere with receiving updates and using services.
- dbmnt 4y ago
  There are quite a few advertising and tracking domains you can safely block without any negative impacts to Apple devices. Parsing my logs at NextDNS (nextdns.io), the domains below are the most commonly blocked. It looks like most of the popular blocklists, including the default NextDNS blocklist, already include these domains. *.iadsdk.apple.com api-adservices.apple.com news.iadsdk.apple.com stocks-analytics-events.apple.com weather-analytics-events.apple.com

tarentel 4y ago

It's not exactly clear to me based on the article or the ones linked if they are out of line with their own privacy policy. Denying app tracking on a specific app doesn't actually prevent the app developer from collecting analytics data. If they are breaking their own rules that's not entirely surprising and hopefully they are forced to follow them as well. It is kind of sketchy that they have a way to turn off "device" analytics which one would assume is tied to apple's apps but that doesn't seem to be the case.

sp332 4y ago
It might not violate the fine print, but if their advertising or other official communications give the wrong idea, they could still be on the hook for misleading customers.
- deleted 4y ago
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deleted 4y ago
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nowherebeen 4y ago

Some middle manager at Apple is shitting themselves right now for causing this.

michael1999 4y ago
The Cossacks work for the Czar.
- michael1999 4y ago
  Tim Cook has been great for my bank account, and terrible for my life.

ezfe 4y ago

> Even when consumers follow Apple's own instructions and turn off "Allow Apps to Request to Track" and/or "Share [Device] Analytics" on their privacy controls Reading the description in Settings for both of these switches, we learn the following: 1. Allow Apps to Request to Track specifically "Allow[s] apps to ask to track your activity across other companies' apps and websites." This clause clearly doesn't apply to any internal analytics process. 2. Share [Device] Analytics is a bigger issue, and is the problem. The switch says that it sends information about how the user uses the operating system and Apple services. That clearly includes the App Store, so switching this off should switch off App Store analytics. Including the first point seems stupid, since it muddies the claim against Apple. A note about the App Store privacy information. It (separately) indicates that they collect the information this article alleges - so Apple IS disclosing it. However that doesn't change the fact that the Analytics toggle reasonably seems to apply to the App Store as well.

helsinkiandrew 4y ago
> Share [Device] Analytics is a bigger issue, and is the problem Personally, I've always assumed that Device analytics (which I always turn off) referred to iOS, device and network performance, what apps are launched and crash etc. and that it didn't cover in app usage analytics. The description is a little vague: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/device-analytics/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/device-analytics... But the App Store privacy notes still state they record usage so they can personalise ads (which are optional) and show trending apps and searches etc (I think not optional)
dkonofalski 4y ago
I don't think I agree with your assessment of this for the following reasons: 1. Nothing here is being tracked "across other companies apps and websites", unless there's something here that shows Apple is cross-pollinating their data internally (which is possible but I don't see any evidence for here). 2. I disagree that this includes "App Store" app. The description given when you click the "About Analytics & Privacy" link explicitly states what the differentiation is and, to me, that does not include the App Store app.

throwaway82388 4y ago

The most persuasive argument for Apple as trustworthy on privacy was weak: that because they didn’t monetize data as rapaciously as Google or Meta, there was less incentive for them to spy on users. But once they introduced new privacy controls, they seemed to suddenly start investing more seriously in their own advertising network. That, and the encryption slight-of-hand with iCloud, makes the cynic’s case for them. App telemetry, metrics, etc might get handwaved away with a sinister phrase, like “essential for improving user experience.” But placing trust in a company on privacy due to the relative lack of financial incentive seems hopelessly naive.

gw98 4y ago
Yeah this one has pissed me off generally. I'm slowly working out how the hell I get out of the ecosystem but I realise I'm heavily locked in and it's difficult so I'm going to have to do it very slowly and methodically. Edit: just bought a desktop PC off ebay which I will install Ubuntu on and see how I get on.
- cowtools 4y ago
  not trying to start a distro war, but I would advise against using ubuntu for the time being as their custodian has been somewhat incompetent in recent years, and they have been forcing users to use their "snap" system. It may give you a bad first experience.
  - ksidudwbw 4y ago
    this path has been partially trodden, elementaryOS. The first versions were snappy don't know now.
  - gw98 4y ago
    Thanks for the heads up. Have dealt with snap before (and eviserated it)
    - adra 4y ago

aliqot 4y ago

I'm starting to think nobody reads the things they click "I Agree" to. The terms of the agreement are right there but you can't say you 'didnt know' if you agree to them without reading.

Loughla 4y ago
You're just starting to think that? They're massively long, convoluted, legalese documents. It's literally a cultural joke that no-one reads those. I believe there needs to be a change in how terms and conditions are written - people need bullet points. By clicking "I Agree", the user (you) agrees that: 1. [COMPANY] can sell your data to third-parties. This data includes [x, y, z] 2. [COMPANY] will retain your data for [X YEARS] 3. [COMPANY] will allow you to delete your data by visiting [WEBSITE] That sort of thing. People don't read; right, wrong, or indifferent, people don't read. They especially don't read convoluted, exceedingly long terms and conditions that they HAVE to accept to use a product.
- aliqot 4y ago
  > It's literally a cultural joke that no-one reads those I read every single document I sign my name to, every time. I'm not alone either. I assume we're mostly engineers here, some of us maybe are involved in contractual things, so tell me: in your job do you sign your business's name or your own name as Officer to contracts you haven't read? Now tell me, if work is less important than your personal affairs why on earth would you review the terms for work agreements, but not for yourself? If I agreed to contracts without reading them in a job context, I'd be in the unemployment line so fast the IRS would send me their condolences.
  - itsyaboi 4y ago
    What is your strategy when it comes to updates? Say you hop into your Tesla, see a pending software update and are prompted with a EULA type document. Do spend the next hour reviewing it before accepting? Assuming you are an engineer and not a legal expert, do you consult with a lawyer about ambiguous wording or clauses? How do you repeat this x100 for all of the software embedded in your life? This has to be a joke, right?

sirius87 4y ago

First thought that popped into my head was Zuck in his VR avatar chomping on a tub of virtual popcorn reading this saying, "Send this man a bouquet". Won't be long before shady lawsuits along similar lines follow. It will soon be more about tapering Apple's ad-network ambitions than genuine concern about user privacy.

Apocryphon 4y ago
Not Apple’s ad-network ambitions!

ksec 4y ago

Apple will probably get away with that as it is all in the fine print. But, 1. Let's not forget vast majority ( if not all ) of people on the Internet, inclusive but not limited to Main-steam Media, HN, Reddit and Twitter who commented between 2017 and 2021 thought privacy meant anonymous. And before anyone disagree, very very few on HN even bother to downvote or stand up against the notion of privacy meant anonymous. 2. Apple play this card, both in PR and marketing, along with media ( Submarine Article or not ) as a tool against Facebook. Or Social Media but let's be honest we all know they mean Facebook. And of course, for people from US, after 2016 Facebook is the most evil company on planet earth. Any Facebook bashing equals great. 3. A lot of people were brought into the idea of privacy meant anonymous. So in other settings, Apple use the word "personalised" instead of Data Collection, cough, I mean tracking. 4. The good thing about all of these, anything illogical will have to unfold some day. ( Just like Crypto ) Apple of course collect Data from you. Apple of course has all the Data about your usage pattern. So when some people came to realise privacy doesn't mean anonymous, I guess they aren't so happy? 5. Apple's true definition of privacy is that All Apple's user Data belongs to Apple. Any data to third party are by definition "Tracking". Since Privacy is a Fundamental Human Right, I guess the only choice is to give Apple all your Data? 6. Most people, especially tech nerds will likely play the I trust Apple more than Google card. Because Apple are not in the Ad business! - That was 2017 to 2021 if not 2022. They have their ads business right infront of you for a long time. They have been preparing their Ads business for a long time. Most tech nerds, or Apple apologist just turns a blind eye to it.

nowherebeen 4y ago
> Because Apple are not in the Ad business! - That was 2017 to 2021 if not 2022. They have their ads business right infront of you for a long time. If you look at their careers page, they have been hiring quite a few adtech talent in Texas for the last half year. I won't be surprised they are waiting for their competitors to die off before swooping in. Corporate strategy and PR teams deserves a raise.
kjreact 4y ago
> 5. Apple's true definition of privacy is that All Apple's user Data belongs to Apple. Any data to third party are by definition "Tracking". Since Privacy is a Fundamental Human Right, I guess the only choice is to give Apple all your Data? Are we so naive to believe that we are not be tracked by the big tech companies all the time? If I use Office 365 Microsoft knows about my document writing habits and may be privy to company secrets if I had to write some sensitive company memos. Google has the vast majority of my email if not all since so much email goes through their mail servers. Even if I avoid using GMail, I can’t stop my contacts from doing so. Google knows all my search habits as well. Amazon knows my spending habits, the list goes on and on. And then there are the traditional means of tracking someone via credit card expenditures or your cell phone provider knowing your whereabouts and usage patterns. You give away tracking data all the time. The issue is how these companies use that data. If they are doing something nefarious like what Cambridge Analytica did then we should be outraged. Otherwise it’s just hypocrisy to play the blame game on any one company.

pannSun 4y ago

> The researchers uncovered these findings using a jailbroken iPhone running iOS 14.6. Notably, while the team discovered similar iPhone activity on a non-jailbroken phone running iOS 16, the data was encrypted and it was therefore not possible to determine exactly what it contained. And this is why "security" to prevent user control or even knowledge of "their" devices is so important.

runjake 4y ago

My hope is that this case or another uncovers just how much user tracking Apple does. It is a lot more than people know. And the efforts to "de-anonymize" collected data are laughable and not de-anonymized, and there is no real oversight for compliance. But that's all I am going to say on that.

tarentel 4y ago
I don't think it's surprising to anyone how much apple tracks its own users. They actually have a page on it and what they're tracking, https://www.apple.com/privacy/labels/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/labels/. It's also clearly stated that a lot of data collected isn't anonymized at all. You're right there is no oversight for compliance to their own terms and that is the real issue. It is also an issue if they're getting a competitive edge by bypassing their own rules. It wouldn't be surprising to me if they were but based on the articles there isn't a whole lot of proof.
- runnerup 4y ago
  I'm somewhat surprised. I had bought into the "all machine-learning is done on-device" messaging and thought that Apple Maps was taking pains to anonymize data by only sending small chunks of your route data for traffic congestion analysis/etc. When Apple was starting their machine learning division I'd heard they had trouble retaining top talent because the engineers would show up and "okay! where's the data?" and Apple would reply "uhh, we don't have any it all stays on-device". But with Apple getting into advertising I don't think this could stay this way, if it ever actually was in the first place.
  - fibers 4y ago
    then what is the point of having such a powerful processor on device?
- FireBeyond 4y ago
  > It is also an issue if they're getting a competitive edge by bypassing their own rules. And it's not like that would be the first time they've done that. Pretty common on all sorts of levels. My "favorite" was the ability of Apple apps on macOS to bypass most of the TCP/IP stack and send traffic directly, regardless of on-device filtering or firewalling. Apple claimed it was "a temporary measure while they dealt with updating software", but I'm still at a loss to explain why an app like TextEdit would have ever needed a kernel network extension in the first place. That to me was almost certainly a post-facto attempt at justification when they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

beders 4y ago

Happy to be tracked. Whatever that means. This is a for-profit organization, so I expect it to behave that way. Which includes maximizing profits made by showing ads to end-users. I really don't care. The benefits I derive from being inside this walled garden outweigh any 'privacy' concerns. You don't have privacy on the internet anyways. Your data is not safe on the internet. You can influence the price tag adversaries need to pay to access your data, but that's it. In short: Hardly a surprise and compared to the competition Apple is going for a good balance.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
What you are saying is:"Privacy exists only for the people who can afford it."

zahma 4y ago

Obviously the case even without Mysk’s research. Apple’s vision for the future is the walled garden of tech utopia. It makes sense that they want data to retain users and lock them in further to the brand. It’s so devilishly hypocritical to track users and pass it off as normal business practice when they have clearly positioned themselves as the defenders of user privacy against the likes of Alphabet and Meta. Alas, I’m typing this in an iPhone because I don’t know of another viable option for now.

h4waii 4y ago
Google Pixel + GrapheneOS is an excellent alternative to an iPhone in terms of usability, privacy, and security, and hardware + software longevity. I know it seems weird to recommend a Google phone, but one can completely eschew the issues around Google tracking, by not using Google services, or using them within the on-device sandbox giving them standard privileges.
simonh 4y ago
The distinction is that Apple doesn't monetise your data by sharing it with third party companies. Personally I'm fine with a company I choose to do business with storing information about me and about how I interact with their services. It just seems obvious that they will need to do this in order to provide their services. I understand that some of this info may be more than the strictly necessary minimum, but I have no evidence so far that any of this info has been used for purposes I consider nefarious. If they do, ok I'll reconsider. I do understand the argument that they're providing an option to opt out of tracking, and that some of this data appears to be what is reasonably considered tracking info. That's a potential concern, sure, but again are they actually using this for anything I'd consider nefarious? If so then again I'm interested, but if not then ok, they should stop doing it, but that's as far as my interest goes.
- guhidalg 4y ago
  Using the data to target ads is as good as sharing it with third party companies. Apple is monetizing you, ostensibly at some point they can just stop making products and survive by advertisers paying to advertise on Apple devices with perfect accuracy given the data Apple has on all of us.

helsinkiandrew 4y ago

I'm confused - the article (and what I read of the suit) seems to be using the term "Tracking" for both tracking users across other companies apps and websites (what Apple lets you opt out of) and recording users interaction inside an app. They are very different - there's over a million websites that use Hotjar alone (which sounds similar to what Apple is recording in App), and every news site will record how many view people read each article if not using some analytics front end JS code to read for how long for. Macrumours.com itself is using Google Analytics, and the suit it links to is using Adobe Analytics which do much the same. From what the article says I don't see how this breaks any of the Apples "Anti Tracking" policies - I'm not saying they're not recording too much just that it doesn't break their policies.

roody15 4y ago

Two weeks ago I attended an Apple Event for Government and Education in Chicago. From my perspective was absolutely alarmed at how open they were about tracking data and sharing. I think their marketing on "privacy" was dishonest at the least. Apple puts constant pressure on the user to use an iCloud account. Apple puts constant pressure to manage apple Devices with a MDM profile based system. In both cases user privacy is lost.

amf12 4y ago
> I think their marketing on "privacy" was dishonest at the least. > Apple puts constant pressure on the user to use an iCloud account. I do think Apple's use of the term "privacy" is not completely honest. But we should note the difference between privacy and anonymity. Using iCloud provides privacy for the user; that is, Apple won't access your iCloud data. It is not however anonymous.

kernal 4y ago

What an odd take for Apple. If they really respected user privacy they would cancel their ad business stop the collection and monetization of user data. Their insatiable quest for revenue has destroyed the primary reason you should buy an Apple product. Apple has crossed the Rubicon and their image is forever tarnished for the sake of adding additional percentage points to their quarterly revenue. What once differentiated Apple from Google, Amazon and Facebook no longer exists. I can't imagine Steve ever going down this road.

SpaceManNabs 4y ago

People were critiquing microsoft for the ads in the start menu or wtv menu. How long till we see ads in iphones?

AlexandrB 4y ago
Plenty of ads in core apps already. I would say that App Store ads are "ads in the iPhone". You also get a bunch of nags in Settings to enable Siri and FaceID features when you get a fresh iPhone or apply a major update. I consider these ads. Probably the least intrusive type of ad, but still.

gigel82 4y ago

I'm happy that these sort of posts are actually getting some traction on Hacker News these days. Up until 3-4 months ago, I was still getting pummeled with downvotes and flags if I even suggested Apple are hypocrites building an ad empire.

dang 4y ago

Url changed from https://www.macrumors.com/2022/11/14/apple-class-action-user-tracking-allegations/ https://www.macrumors.com/2022/11/14/apple-class-action-user..., which points to this. Submitters: "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

_8j50 4y ago

Yeah, I don't care what mobile phone it is, I don't trust it with respect to privacy. I have to use a phone for apps like uber and I use one to browse random content like HN that has no privacy issue for me if the world saw most stuff I read but I have moved away all other use cases to a simpler harderned Linux laptop. It feels a bit weird and more isolated with that plus no social media but I have seen improvments in my quality of life and I have confidence that the handful of privacy or securiry sensitive data or interactions I have are difficult to compromise.