4 ms·

> Almost every educated adult under 60 there speaks English, as far as I can tell. This is not true in Berlin, atleast. Even the immigration office may not spe

> Almost every educated adult under 60 there speaks English, as far as I can tell. This is not true in Berlin, atleast. Even the immigration office may not speak English.

barry-cotter 4y ago
I can see why in Berlin people who hang out in bourgeois spaces would think that. Almost every university graduate under 40 is able to speak English and an awful lot of those under that age. Germany isn’t like Scandinavia where everyone without severe educational issues speaks English well but it’s another world compared to Italy, and Berlin has unusually high levels of competence in English for Germany.
- Haga 4y ago
- still_grokking 4y ago
  > Berlin has unusually high levels of competence in English for Germany I would not confirm that. In Berlin everybody speaks at least some English, and more importantly, people are way less "shy" to do so. But the overall level of education (and that includes foreign languages) is much much lower in Berlin than in the southern states. You can even get your Abitur in Berlin without having to take English exams. That's something that's impossible in say Bavaria.
  - Xylakant 4y ago
    There’s no requirement for English in the Bavarian Abitur. You must pick one language up to the exams, but you can totally pick Latin. I’m fairly confident that you have to have at least 4 years of English in school everywhere in Germany if you have at least Mittlere Reife (you can pick a different language as first language in 5th grade, but you need to have Englisch from 7th to 10th)
    - still_grokking 4y ago
      Did they change something in the last decades? English was once mandatory as far as I remember. (And you could pick French, Latin, and sometimes ancient Greek, or Spanish additionally). But the point about Berlin is in fact a little bit different to what I've written before: You can get ABI there without any foreign language at all! (And their math and physics level was more or less comparable to my 11th grade in Bavaria). I was shocked when I leaned that… (That was the first time I've understood why some people would like to lower the ABI results of people coming form the north by one up to two grades when they come to study in the south; the different levels of education across Germany are in fact a real problem).
      - Xylakant 4y ago
        You can get the Abitur in Berlin without having a written or oral final exam in a foreign language in Berlin, that’s true as far as I know. You still need to take classes in at least one foreign language in the time up to the exam and the grades will be part of the final grade.
        still_grokking 4y ago
        Exactly. It's possible there to have no final exam at all in English (or any other foreign language). Whereas there were not much possibilities to get around the final exam in the second foreign language in Bavaria, and no way at all to avoid the exam in at least one foreign language. Which makes a very big difference for someone who's not good in languages—as only the grades form the exams are part of the graduation certificate (which is relevant for example when applying for a university place). That extremely unfair! You get Abitur in Berlin more or less for free. The grade from the subjects you don't have any final exams in are of course not part of the graduation certificate… I know someone who was struggling in Bavarian middle school with at best average grades, moved to Berlin, could join the "equivalent" of Gymnasium there, and got out with an A-grade ABI. Such "good" grades would get you for example prioritized for say studies in medicine or law, whereas you would not even be allowed to get into university in Bavaria with a middle school diploma. That are literally life changing differences! That's really not OK.
still_grokking 4y ago
It's almost impossible to grow up in Germany and not be forced into English lessons. English is mandatory even for the lowest level of education. I can asses you, more or less everybody here does know at least some English. But of course no official will talk to you in English. No way. Even if they could without much effort. If you need to speak to an authority you need to do it in German. They will insist on that. Out of their perspective it's all about forcing you to "show respect" for the German authority. Berlin is special anyway. It's more likely that some random dude on the street speaks English than German. I know people that live in Berlin for many years and still don't speak any German at all. In the day to day life that works out pretty well. The only occasions where they need to bring some native speaker with them is when they need to interact with the authorities… On the countryside it's different though. Even everybody does also know English you wouldn't get away with not learning German; as not only the authorities would insist on speaking German. People will just ignore you and pretend they don't understand if you try to talk to them in a foreign language (even everybody understands at least some English).
- vultour 4y ago
  I am also from a country that has mandatory English lessons and the overall level is very poor.
  - still_grokking 4y ago
    I would say the English level in Germany is quite high all in all. Everybody understands it, most people are able to speak it quite well. This should be no wonder as the languages are actually quite similar. At least the gap isn't so big as for example between English and some Latin language, or even something linguistically much more far away. But even people are considerably well educated in this regard they don't like to speak English in daily life. Berlin (and the few other big northern cities like Frankfurt) are mostly an exception to that. But even there this does not hold for authorities. They will on principle insist on German.
    - InCityDreams 4y ago

> Almost every educated adult under 60 there speaks English, as far as I can tell. This is not true in Berlin, atleast. Even the immigration office may not speak English.

barry-cotter 4y ago

I can see why in Berlin people who hang out in bourgeois spaces would think that. Almost every university graduate under 40 is able to speak English and an awful lot of those under that age. Germany isn’t like Scandinavia where everyone without severe educational issues speaks English well but it’s another world compared to Italy, and Berlin has unusually high levels of competence in English for Germany.

Haga 4y ago
still_grokking 4y ago
> Berlin has unusually high levels of competence in English for Germany I would not confirm that. In Berlin everybody speaks at least some English, and more importantly, people are way less "shy" to do so. But the overall level of education (and that includes foreign languages) is much much lower in Berlin than in the southern states. You can even get your Abitur in Berlin without having to take English exams. That's something that's impossible in say Bavaria.
- Xylakant 4y ago
  There’s no requirement for English in the Bavarian Abitur. You must pick one language up to the exams, but you can totally pick Latin. I’m fairly confident that you have to have at least 4 years of English in school everywhere in Germany if you have at least Mittlere Reife (you can pick a different language as first language in 5th grade, but you need to have Englisch from 7th to 10th)
  - still_grokking 4y ago
    Did they change something in the last decades? English was once mandatory as far as I remember. (And you could pick French, Latin, and sometimes ancient Greek, or Spanish additionally). But the point about Berlin is in fact a little bit different to what I've written before: You can get ABI there without any foreign language at all! (And their math and physics level was more or less comparable to my 11th grade in Bavaria). I was shocked when I leaned that… (That was the first time I've understood why some people would like to lower the ABI results of people coming form the north by one up to two grades when they come to study in the south; the different levels of education across Germany are in fact a real problem).
    - Xylakant 4y ago
      You can get the Abitur in Berlin without having a written or oral final exam in a foreign language in Berlin, that’s true as far as I know. You still need to take classes in at least one foreign language in the time up to the exam and the grades will be part of the final grade.
      - still_grokking 4y ago
        Exactly. It's possible there to have no final exam at all in English (or any other foreign language). Whereas there were not much possibilities to get around the final exam in the second foreign language in Bavaria, and no way at all to avoid the exam in at least one foreign language. Which makes a very big difference for someone who's not good in languages—as only the grades form the exams are part of the graduation certificate (which is relevant for example when applying for a university place). That extremely unfair! You get Abitur in Berlin more or less for free. The grade from the subjects you don't have any final exams in are of course not part of the graduation certificate… I know someone who was struggling in Bavarian middle school with at best average grades, moved to Berlin, could join the "equivalent" of Gymnasium there, and got out with an A-grade ABI. Such "good" grades would get you for example prioritized for say studies in medicine or law, whereas you would not even be allowed to get into university in Bavaria with a middle school diploma. That are literally life changing differences! That's really not OK.

still_grokking 4y ago

It's almost impossible to grow up in Germany and not be forced into English lessons. English is mandatory even for the lowest level of education. I can asses you, more or less everybody here does know at least some English. But of course no official will talk to you in English. No way. Even if they could without much effort. If you need to speak to an authority you need to do it in German. They will insist on that. Out of their perspective it's all about forcing you to "show respect" for the German authority. Berlin is special anyway. It's more likely that some random dude on the street speaks English than German. I know people that live in Berlin for many years and still don't speak any German at all. In the day to day life that works out pretty well. The only occasions where they need to bring some native speaker with them is when they need to interact with the authorities… On the countryside it's different though. Even everybody does also know English you wouldn't get away with not learning German; as not only the authorities would insist on speaking German. People will just ignore you and pretend they don't understand if you try to talk to them in a foreign language (even everybody understands at least some English).

vultour 4y ago
I am also from a country that has mandatory English lessons and the overall level is very poor.
- still_grokking 4y ago
  I would say the English level in Germany is quite high all in all. Everybody understands it, most people are able to speak it quite well. This should be no wonder as the languages are actually quite similar. At least the gap isn't so big as for example between English and some Latin language, or even something linguistically much more far away. But even people are considerably well educated in this regard they don't like to speak English in daily life. Berlin (and the few other big northern cities like Frankfurt) are mostly an exception to that. But even there this does not hold for authorities. They will on principle insist on German.
  - InCityDreams 4y ago