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A country like the economic and industrial powerhouse of the European Union? Yes, I think they're doing fine without business owners who are not interested in

A country like the economic and industrial powerhouse of the European Union? Yes, I think they're doing fine without business owners who are not interested in being business literate in the market they intend to participate in.

Major_Grooves 4y ago
yes, they do well. However, I think they would do better by making the business registration process more accessible to outsiders.
- quonn 4y ago
  It would be nice and I'll fully support it. But I think those outside founders would benefit more than Germany would benefit from them. For those who actually want to create roots in the country, create jobs, generate taxable income - well, for those the incorporation will be a very small roadblock. Tiny compared to everything else.
  - nibbleshifter 4y ago
    I simply took my (sustainable, profitable) business to Ireland after getting sick of dealing with German nonsense. The value prop to me of being in Germany was entirely negated by the hostile environment towards getting anything done that wasn't paperwork.
    - quonn 4y ago
      I‘ve been running my company in Germany for years and do absolutely zero paper work. Zero. As I said, I spent a few hours to incorporate and we pay external services to do the work to keep it running (taxes, insurances). And I refuse to believe that you don‘t have to file taxes in other countries, sorry. It‘s just ridiculous.
chrisseaton 4y ago
Someone else posted a link where they're specifically requesting people start their companies there... in English. https://start-ups.invest-in-bavaria.com https://start-ups.invest-in-bavaria.com
t8sr 4y ago
Germany hasn't created any new Fortune 500 companies in a long time, and it (I grant you, along with the rest of Europe) is increasingly lagging behind the US and South East Asia. 10-20 more years like this and the gap between Germany and the US will be as large as the gap between Western and Eastern Europe was in the 90s. The German economy desperately needs modernizing, and the German state is not helping. It's wild to me that Germans don't even acknowledge the problem. Not for nothing, but crossing the border between Switzerland and Bavaria is like time travel: on one side everything runs on diesel, all transactions are done in cash and nothing can be done online, and outside of Munich you're lucky if you can get DSL. On the other side of the border, everything is automated, everything is online and there is gigabit fiber and 5G in every village. Oh, and everyone speaks English. The only difference is Switzerland has a free market economy and Germany has cartels backed by the German government. EDIT: I apparently picked a fight with the German online brigade. I think it's part of the problem that so many Germans are personally offended when inefficiencies in their government are pointed out. This just proves my point: criticize the UK/US/Dutch/whatever government, and British/Americans/Dutch people will show up and agree with you. Criticize the German government, and 20 Germans will show up to tell you why you're wrong and Germany is actually a global leader in whatever you're talking about.
- blibble 4y ago
  a german company probably wouldn't be listed on the fortune 500, a list of american companies
  - t8sr 4y ago
    Yes, obviously I meant Fortune Global 500. The point stands.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    F500 is a global list, not a US one.
- quonn 4y ago
  > and it [...] is increasingly lagging behind the US Nothing new, that was also the case in the 90s. It's actually surprisingly robust. It does not create Fortune 500 companies, because it instead creates a very large number of medium size businesses (a few hundred or a few thousand employees only) that specialise and often become global market leaders. Because there are many different ones that model is robust and the work is labour intensive and creates both white collar and blue collar jobs. So not just bad. And let's not forget that it's a small country. The US has 4x the population, even Japan has 50% more. To say nothing of China, India, etc. Yet Germany is still #4 in terms of GDP.
blackbear_ 4y ago
Business is not the only sector where language is such a hindrance. I am a foreigner and came to Germany to do a PhD, I work 60 hours per week for a miserable salary and I do not have the time nor energy to learn German after work. About half of my colleagues are international and in the same situation. If you want Germany to stay at the forefront you need people like us coming here and carrying your economy forward.
- data_maan 4y ago
  Let me tell you, no matter how miserable your salary in academia in Germany is - it is more miserable in the UK (higher living costs at slightly lower salary, which is around 1250 GBP for most students). I actually know Germans from top UK universities that are considering going back to Germany after they finish. So, same problem here, after Brexit: UK needs people to come and move things forwards, but the place is rotten enough that it doesn't happen. This is not about "the grass is greener on the other side", it's more about: The only place in research you really can make $$$ seems to be the US and, maybe, Switzerland. Or does anyone know any other country?
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    UK PhD students don’t get a salary they get a stipend.
    - data_maan 4y ago
      Incorrect. Some get a stipend, but some are also hired as part-time research assistants, on a salary that is equivalent to a stipend after deducting a few meagre pounds as tax. It depends on who provides funding (a research council, your supervisor from his grant etc). In either case: It's low. Very low.

Major_Grooves 4y ago

yes, they do well. However, I think they would do better by making the business registration process more accessible to outsiders.

quonn 4y ago
It would be nice and I'll fully support it. But I think those outside founders would benefit more than Germany would benefit from them. For those who actually want to create roots in the country, create jobs, generate taxable income - well, for those the incorporation will be a very small roadblock. Tiny compared to everything else.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  I simply took my (sustainable, profitable) business to Ireland after getting sick of dealing with German nonsense. The value prop to me of being in Germany was entirely negated by the hostile environment towards getting anything done that wasn't paperwork.
  - quonn 4y ago
    I‘ve been running my company in Germany for years and do absolutely zero paper work. Zero. As I said, I spent a few hours to incorporate and we pay external services to do the work to keep it running (taxes, insurances). And I refuse to believe that you don‘t have to file taxes in other countries, sorry. It‘s just ridiculous.

chrisseaton 4y ago

Someone else posted a link where they're specifically requesting people start their companies there... in English. https://start-ups.invest-in-bavaria.com https://start-ups.invest-in-bavaria.com

t8sr 4y ago

Germany hasn't created any new Fortune 500 companies in a long time, and it (I grant you, along with the rest of Europe) is increasingly lagging behind the US and South East Asia. 10-20 more years like this and the gap between Germany and the US will be as large as the gap between Western and Eastern Europe was in the 90s. The German economy desperately needs modernizing, and the German state is not helping. It's wild to me that Germans don't even acknowledge the problem. Not for nothing, but crossing the border between Switzerland and Bavaria is like time travel: on one side everything runs on diesel, all transactions are done in cash and nothing can be done online, and outside of Munich you're lucky if you can get DSL. On the other side of the border, everything is automated, everything is online and there is gigabit fiber and 5G in every village. Oh, and everyone speaks English. The only difference is Switzerland has a free market economy and Germany has cartels backed by the German government. EDIT: I apparently picked a fight with the German online brigade. I think it's part of the problem that so many Germans are personally offended when inefficiencies in their government are pointed out. This just proves my point: criticize the UK/US/Dutch/whatever government, and British/Americans/Dutch people will show up and agree with you. Criticize the German government, and 20 Germans will show up to tell you why you're wrong and Germany is actually a global leader in whatever you're talking about.

blibble 4y ago
a german company probably wouldn't be listed on the fortune 500, a list of american companies
- t8sr 4y ago
  Yes, obviously I meant Fortune Global 500. The point stands.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  F500 is a global list, not a US one.
quonn 4y ago
> and it [...] is increasingly lagging behind the US Nothing new, that was also the case in the 90s. It's actually surprisingly robust. It does not create Fortune 500 companies, because it instead creates a very large number of medium size businesses (a few hundred or a few thousand employees only) that specialise and often become global market leaders. Because there are many different ones that model is robust and the work is labour intensive and creates both white collar and blue collar jobs. So not just bad. And let's not forget that it's a small country. The US has 4x the population, even Japan has 50% more. To say nothing of China, India, etc. Yet Germany is still #4 in terms of GDP.

blackbear_ 4y ago

Business is not the only sector where language is such a hindrance. I am a foreigner and came to Germany to do a PhD, I work 60 hours per week for a miserable salary and I do not have the time nor energy to learn German after work. About half of my colleagues are international and in the same situation. If you want Germany to stay at the forefront you need people like us coming here and carrying your economy forward.

data_maan 4y ago
Let me tell you, no matter how miserable your salary in academia in Germany is - it is more miserable in the UK (higher living costs at slightly lower salary, which is around 1250 GBP for most students). I actually know Germans from top UK universities that are considering going back to Germany after they finish. So, same problem here, after Brexit: UK needs people to come and move things forwards, but the place is rotten enough that it doesn't happen. This is not about "the grass is greener on the other side", it's more about: The only place in research you really can make $$$ seems to be the US and, maybe, Switzerland. Or does anyone know any other country?
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  UK PhD students don’t get a salary they get a stipend.
  - data_maan 4y ago
    Incorrect. Some get a stipend, but some are also hired as part-time research assistants, on a salary that is equivalent to a stipend after deducting a few meagre pounds as tax. It depends on who provides funding (a research council, your supervisor from his grant etc). In either case: It's low. Very low.