4 ms·

A friend of mine has a very interesting view with regards to flow: It is a bad thing. You don't want to be in a state of flow, because you are not thinking hard

A friend of mine has a very interesting view with regards to flow: It is a bad thing. You don't want to be in a state of flow, because you are not thinking hard enough about what you are doing then, but just following the flow.

omnicognate 4y ago
I don't think I'd go as far as to claim flow is bad, but there's something to that. I'm a long term emacs user and between changing keyboards a few times and an unfortunate spell of a few years using an IntelliJ-based IDE with Emacs Keybindings that are far better than most but inevitably off (most infuriatingly, to conclude an incremental search you use Ctrl-g, which in actual emacs jumps you back to where you started the search) my reflexes are all over the place. I'm therefore having to force myself to slow down and be consciously aware of everything I do. I'm finding it a really useful exercise for more than just the retraining aspect. It does seem to increase my overall engagement with the task I'm carrying out, beyond just the operation of the tool.
BiteCode_dev 4y ago
Being in the flow is not being on automatic. It's the absolute opposite, you are totally conscious about what you are doing, and clear headed about the decisions you make. It does feel effortless, but not in the sense that you are not doing the thing consciously, rather in the sense that the thing seems so obvious and easy as you perform in perfect fluidity.
randiRando 4y ago
That is a very _interesting_ take. I think it's ~wrong but, like most interesting takes, there's some truth to it. I think the "truth" here is that, well yeah you're not thinking about some things, that's literally what I consider flow, it's not thinking about **how** you're going to do X but it's higher level than that and focusing on "do x". I think it's the difference between thinking/taking the action "walk to the door and open" (X in the flow state) and "ok get up, left leg forward, right leg forward, left leg forward, right leg forward, move arm to door, grab, twist, pull". Flow is just not thinking about the things that are not important (a lot of code is just gluing and can be done in a flow state - still allowing you to stop and think about the real important places). What your friend is calling out is that yeah I guess that sometimes you can "automate"/flow things that actually are important but to be honest I don't think that happens very often in this context (software, real use(r)-cases) because their use-case are usually so narrow and specific (we should design software to allow them to "flow" the unimportant stuff - click next for the additional questions - did you notice the button responds on mouse click up? I hope not, I hope we made that piece "flowable")
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  There is something to be said about flow in mechanical activities, because on those, yes, you are mostly not thinking, just following the "rhythm". Safety is normally one of the first things to get out of your head during that. But programing is nothing like mechanical activities.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    But the act of typing on the code and running/debugging it should be. Any toolset where you have to wait excessive amounts of time just to be able edit/ compile/launch/debug/review results is not really going to make you think more carefully about your code (an exception could be made for super long compile times, which do force you to be more careful with what you input, but I'm not really convinced it can help you write better code).
  - eitland 4y ago
    Programming for me is both: - reading and understanding existing code - a often very goal oriented activity (but sometimes exploratory) where I (try to in the latter case) transform a part of the system according to my visions of a better system - the mechanics of moving the caret around (arrow keys, file selection), selecting text (shift and ctrl modifiers in addition to arrow keys), using shortcuts to invoke pre defined transformations (automated refactoring) etc. It is the thinking I get paid the good money for. But if I was constantly struggling with my tools then it will take more time and I would get exhausted faster.
    - marcosdumay 4y ago
      > the mechanics of moving the caret around You can't hurt yourself moving the caret around.
      - eitland 4y ago
        I thankfully don't suffer from it but ask anyone with RSI about that. My broader point however is that if even a small but non trivial part of my brain capacity must be used to deal with the mechanics. In a way it is like when I learned to use a climbing harness for work and learned to trust it, the effect on my output when I worked in the field was amazing because everything I did was no longer interrupted by constant considerations and adjustments to stay safe.
deleted 4y ago
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kragen 4y ago
being in a state of flow as defined by csikszentmihalyi has nothing to do with 'just following the flow' on the contrary, it is when you are in a state of flow that you are thinking hardest about what you are doing it sounds like your friend got confused by a random coincidence of word meanings
openfuture 4y ago
The way it has been described to me is that if you always take the same route to work then your cognitive performance goes down. Staying curious and exploring the different routes is hard with relatively few waypoints but then you can zoom into more granular decisions (or out ... to the causes).
robinsonb5 4y ago
I can see where your friend's coming from - but I'd disagree up to a point. It's about which aspects you want to be in a state of flow. If you've used a computer for any length of time, then when you type you're not thinking about the act of pressing each key - you're probably thinking several words ahead of your fingers. If you type half a dozen characters and nothing happens on-screen, then they all appear at once three or four seconds later that would be an intolerable break of flow. (And happens more frequently today than it did when computers were literally 0.1% of their current speed.) If you're driving, you don't want to be thinking about the act of reaching for the gearstick or indicator stalk, but you do want to be thinking about what's happening on the road - so there you can indeed take "flow" too far. On the other hand, if you're performing music, your fingers need to be in a state of flow in order to free you to concentrate on the emotion of the music - yet that, too, would ideally be in a state of flow...
torstenvl 4y ago
That is not what I experience. The thing I refer to when I refer to "flow" or being "plugged in" or "in the zone" is that all of the relevant paradigms and information are in my working memory. When I'm in a flow state, I see and understand not only the function in front of me, but the functions it calls, the functions that call it, and the data structures involved. I can see the tree in minute detail at the same time I can see exactly how it fits into the ecosystem of the forest. It isn't that I'm not thinking hard. It's that thinking hard is possible, rather than interrupted by a constant need to regain context.
renox 4y ago
Interesting take, you're supposed to think about what needs to be done before 'going into the flow' to do it. But yes, sometimes this waste time because you discover afterwards that what you did wasn't what should have been done, if you were less focused on doing it you may have changed your mind before.

omnicognate 4y ago

I don't think I'd go as far as to claim flow is bad, but there's something to that. I'm a long term emacs user and between changing keyboards a few times and an unfortunate spell of a few years using an IntelliJ-based IDE with Emacs Keybindings that are far better than most but inevitably off (most infuriatingly, to conclude an incremental search you use Ctrl-g, which in actual emacs jumps you back to where you started the search) my reflexes are all over the place. I'm therefore having to force myself to slow down and be consciously aware of everything I do. I'm finding it a really useful exercise for more than just the retraining aspect. It does seem to increase my overall engagement with the task I'm carrying out, beyond just the operation of the tool.

BiteCode_dev 4y ago

Being in the flow is not being on automatic. It's the absolute opposite, you are totally conscious about what you are doing, and clear headed about the decisions you make. It does feel effortless, but not in the sense that you are not doing the thing consciously, rather in the sense that the thing seems so obvious and easy as you perform in perfect fluidity.

randiRando 4y ago

That is a very _interesting_ take. I think it's ~wrong but, like most interesting takes, there's some truth to it. I think the "truth" here is that, well yeah you're not thinking about some things, that's literally what I consider flow, it's not thinking about **how** you're going to do X but it's higher level than that and focusing on "do x". I think it's the difference between thinking/taking the action "walk to the door and open" (X in the flow state) and "ok get up, left leg forward, right leg forward, left leg forward, right leg forward, move arm to door, grab, twist, pull". Flow is just not thinking about the things that are not important (a lot of code is just gluing and can be done in a flow state - still allowing you to stop and think about the real important places). What your friend is calling out is that yeah I guess that sometimes you can "automate"/flow things that actually are important but to be honest I don't think that happens very often in this context (software, real use(r)-cases) because their use-case are usually so narrow and specific (we should design software to allow them to "flow" the unimportant stuff - click next for the additional questions - did you notice the button responds on mouse click up? I hope not, I hope we made that piece "flowable")

marcosdumay 4y ago
There is something to be said about flow in mechanical activities, because on those, yes, you are mostly not thinking, just following the "rhythm". Safety is normally one of the first things to get out of your head during that. But programing is nothing like mechanical activities.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  But the act of typing on the code and running/debugging it should be. Any toolset where you have to wait excessive amounts of time just to be able edit/ compile/launch/debug/review results is not really going to make you think more carefully about your code (an exception could be made for super long compile times, which do force you to be more careful with what you input, but I'm not really convinced it can help you write better code).
- eitland 4y ago
  Programming for me is both: - reading and understanding existing code - a often very goal oriented activity (but sometimes exploratory) where I (try to in the latter case) transform a part of the system according to my visions of a better system - the mechanics of moving the caret around (arrow keys, file selection), selecting text (shift and ctrl modifiers in addition to arrow keys), using shortcuts to invoke pre defined transformations (automated refactoring) etc. It is the thinking I get paid the good money for. But if I was constantly struggling with my tools then it will take more time and I would get exhausted faster.
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    > the mechanics of moving the caret around You can't hurt yourself moving the caret around.
    - eitland 4y ago
      I thankfully don't suffer from it but ask anyone with RSI about that. My broader point however is that if even a small but non trivial part of my brain capacity must be used to deal with the mechanics. In a way it is like when I learned to use a climbing harness for work and learned to trust it, the effect on my output when I worked in the field was amazing because everything I did was no longer interrupted by constant considerations and adjustments to stay safe.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

kragen 4y ago

being in a state of flow as defined by csikszentmihalyi has nothing to do with 'just following the flow' on the contrary, it is when you are in a state of flow that you are thinking hardest about what you are doing it sounds like your friend got confused by a random coincidence of word meanings

openfuture 4y ago

The way it has been described to me is that if you always take the same route to work then your cognitive performance goes down. Staying curious and exploring the different routes is hard with relatively few waypoints but then you can zoom into more granular decisions (or out ... to the causes).

robinsonb5 4y ago

I can see where your friend's coming from - but I'd disagree up to a point. It's about which aspects you want to be in a state of flow. If you've used a computer for any length of time, then when you type you're not thinking about the act of pressing each key - you're probably thinking several words ahead of your fingers. If you type half a dozen characters and nothing happens on-screen, then they all appear at once three or four seconds later that would be an intolerable break of flow. (And happens more frequently today than it did when computers were literally 0.1% of their current speed.) If you're driving, you don't want to be thinking about the act of reaching for the gearstick or indicator stalk, but you do want to be thinking about what's happening on the road - so there you can indeed take "flow" too far. On the other hand, if you're performing music, your fingers need to be in a state of flow in order to free you to concentrate on the emotion of the music - yet that, too, would ideally be in a state of flow...

torstenvl 4y ago

That is not what I experience. The thing I refer to when I refer to "flow" or being "plugged in" or "in the zone" is that all of the relevant paradigms and information are in my working memory. When I'm in a flow state, I see and understand not only the function in front of me, but the functions it calls, the functions that call it, and the data structures involved. I can see the tree in minute detail at the same time I can see exactly how it fits into the ecosystem of the forest. It isn't that I'm not thinking hard. It's that thinking hard is possible, rather than interrupted by a constant need to regain context.

renox 4y ago

Interesting take, you're supposed to think about what needs to be done before 'going into the flow' to do it. But yes, sometimes this waste time because you discover afterwards that what you did wasn't what should have been done, if you were less focused on doing it you may have changed your mind before.