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Is it really a given that high testosterone leads to aggression? It can lead to dominance, but not necessarily violence. The whole 'roid rage' thing has been s

Is it really a given that high testosterone leads to aggression? It can lead to dominance, but not necessarily violence. The whole 'roid rage' thing has been shown to be the result of elevated estrogen levels (excess testosterone is converted to estrogen, which is why steroid users take an aromatase inhibitor).

rco8786 4y ago
Isn’t that one in the same? High test -> high est -> high anger
- jossclimb 4y ago
  It's not high test though, its excess test from intramuscular injections into the body. Without an external source of testosterone, the endocrine system will keep the two balanced (unless someone has some sort of illness or damage to the testi).
  - gocartStatue 4y ago
    Balanced but defined by your genes. My natural balance may be higher in estrogen and DHT for example, than someone else’s. My receptors can be more or less sensitive to some hormones. That explains why some people can feel great and some terrible with same lab results.
jackmott 4y ago
You are making strong assertions that are not strongly supported by evidence. Strong emotional reactions can happen for all kinds of hormonal disruptions including both added testosterone and all of the indirect consequences of using it (such as excess estrogen or other imbalances of that may result) Absolutely some people can do massive amounts of steroids and have no aggressive tendencies, but other people immediately have problems. Its rather notable in some circles, like masters sports where lots of men are on TRT and who knows what subtle psychological effects are at play, decisions being swayed by your new hormone makeup. Would make for fascinating research delving deeper
comfypotato 4y ago
Test is associated with aggression [1]. I have to admit, I don’t really understand aromatization. Perhaps it’s the high test resulting in high estrogen that leads to the aggression. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23843821/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23843821/
- Silverback_VII 4y ago
  Testosterone increases whatever leads to a higher social status in a given society. So it can increase competitive but also cooperative behaviour depending on the circumstances. This is why I think the drop in testosterone is such a problem for many men. Your brain does not optimize for success and SMV anymore.
  - cooldrcool3 4y ago
    Do you have a source for that. From what I have read testosterone increases novelty seeking and competitiveness.
    - Silverback_VII 4y ago
      Yes I have: some professor at Standford named Robert Sapolsky
      - fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
        Can’t speak for grandparent commentor, but I think they’re asking for the actual article which demonstrates the effects to which you’re alluding.
        Silverback_VII 4y ago
        "Based on these recent findings, we argue that the role of testosterone in human social behavior might be best understood in terms of the search for, and maintenance of, social status." https://www.zora.uzh.ch/58008/1/Testosterone_social_interaction_revision_(12_Apr_11).pdf https://www.zora.uzh.ch/58008/1/Testosterone_social_interact... but I have to say that these "where is the source" posts are tiring and more often than not just a lazy attempt to destroy an argument with zero effort.
deleted 4y ago
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friedman23 4y ago
From what I understand, things like testosterone just amplify what already exists.
therusskiy 4y ago
Testosterone increases desire to maintain high social status. If that can be achieved through aggression - a person going to do just that, if that is achieved through team play and compassion, the person would do it instead. As Robert Sapolsky said, it is sad that in our society aggessive behaviour is the one that leads to success.
tgv 4y ago
> Is it really a given that high testosterone leads to aggression? I've spoken with researchers that actually administered testosterone to human subjects in experiments, and they found no effect: it doesn't seem to trigger aggression or violence, at least not in the short term. It probably is a bad idea to ascribe a range of complex behaviors to a single cause, and limit it to those behaviors as well.
shrimp_emoji 4y ago
Something like 99% of homicide and rape is perpetrated by males, and they have more T than females, so a naive analysis says yes.

rco8786 4y ago

Isn’t that one in the same? High test -> high est -> high anger

jossclimb 4y ago
It's not high test though, its excess test from intramuscular injections into the body. Without an external source of testosterone, the endocrine system will keep the two balanced (unless someone has some sort of illness or damage to the testi).
- gocartStatue 4y ago
  Balanced but defined by your genes. My natural balance may be higher in estrogen and DHT for example, than someone else’s. My receptors can be more or less sensitive to some hormones. That explains why some people can feel great and some terrible with same lab results.

jackmott 4y ago

You are making strong assertions that are not strongly supported by evidence. Strong emotional reactions can happen for all kinds of hormonal disruptions including both added testosterone and all of the indirect consequences of using it (such as excess estrogen or other imbalances of that may result) Absolutely some people can do massive amounts of steroids and have no aggressive tendencies, but other people immediately have problems. Its rather notable in some circles, like masters sports where lots of men are on TRT and who knows what subtle psychological effects are at play, decisions being swayed by your new hormone makeup. Would make for fascinating research delving deeper

comfypotato 4y ago

Test is associated with aggression [1]. I have to admit, I don’t really understand aromatization. Perhaps it’s the high test resulting in high estrogen that leads to the aggression. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23843821/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23843821/

Silverback_VII 4y ago
Testosterone increases whatever leads to a higher social status in a given society. So it can increase competitive but also cooperative behaviour depending on the circumstances. This is why I think the drop in testosterone is such a problem for many men. Your brain does not optimize for success and SMV anymore.
- cooldrcool3 4y ago
  Do you have a source for that. From what I have read testosterone increases novelty seeking and competitiveness.
  - Silverback_VII 4y ago
    Yes I have: some professor at Standford named Robert Sapolsky
    - fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
      Can’t speak for grandparent commentor, but I think they’re asking for the actual article which demonstrates the effects to which you’re alluding.
      - Silverback_VII 4y ago
        "Based on these recent findings, we argue that the role of testosterone in human social behavior might be best understood in terms of the search for, and maintenance of, social status." https://www.zora.uzh.ch/58008/1/Testosterone_social_interaction_revision_(12_Apr_11).pdf https://www.zora.uzh.ch/58008/1/Testosterone_social_interact... but I have to say that these "where is the source" posts are tiring and more often than not just a lazy attempt to destroy an argument with zero effort.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

friedman23 4y ago

From what I understand, things like testosterone just amplify what already exists.

therusskiy 4y ago

Testosterone increases desire to maintain high social status. If that can be achieved through aggression - a person going to do just that, if that is achieved through team play and compassion, the person would do it instead. As Robert Sapolsky said, it is sad that in our society aggessive behaviour is the one that leads to success.

tgv 4y ago

> Is it really a given that high testosterone leads to aggression? I've spoken with researchers that actually administered testosterone to human subjects in experiments, and they found no effect: it doesn't seem to trigger aggression or violence, at least not in the short term. It probably is a bad idea to ascribe a range of complex behaviors to a single cause, and limit it to those behaviors as well.

shrimp_emoji 4y ago

Something like 99% of homicide and rape is perpetrated by males, and they have more T than females, so a naive analysis says yes.