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Fair enough. The company I work for now doesn't do the leetcode style questions in interviews either, which I like. But... one of the most talented developers I

Fair enough. The company I work for now doesn't do the leetcode style questions in interviews either, which I like. But... one of the most talented developers I know, this self taught FE engineer who is fast, builds sensible abstractions, and is simultaneously concerned with pixel level detail and building a framework that automates things for everyone didn't study the leetcode stuff either, he doesn't find it relevant because he is already good. I agree, but the thing is, you're just giving some box checker a reason to put a red X in your box if you don't know this stuff. It's silly, it's not that hard to learn, and we all know we're going to be asked it at some point. Not learning it kinda says something too. That talented engineer has been rejected by places I know needed his skills, for that reason. I don't want to wax on about why we need DS&A tests in SW interviews, I think it gets taken to a silly degree and is in no way the only marker for what makes a good engineer. I just think that, as an interviewer, if I ask a question that I'm required to ask as part of the interview loop, and I get some comments about how these questions are silly or the candidate just falls on their face and can't do it... it shows more than a lack of time spent with cracking the coding interview. It shows lack of preparation and you can extrapolate that to the rest of the candidates work. If that person thinks the prep is silly, the prep we all know we need to do for a high paying job, and they just don't do it... it doesn't say anything positive. Luckily at the company I work at now, you have plenty of chances to prove you just didn't refresh DS&A knowledge and you can still be hired, but why have your docket show up to the panel with an extra thumbs down when passing the bar is so easy... I don't know.

Aeolun 4y ago
> It shows lack of preparation and you can extrapolate that to the rest of the candidates work. If that person thinks the prep is silly, the prep we all know we need to do for a high paying job, and they just don't do it... it doesn't say anything positive. But that isn’t true. A surgeon isn’t asked to do a quick review of random medical facts before they take an interview. I refuse to submit to this ridiculous process, and therefore I’m always failing out in the leetcode part. I’d rather spend my time doing something useful or relaxing.
- MarkMarine 4y ago
  They take stringent board exams and go through residency, if that existed in software I’d agree with you. It exists in law, other engineering fields have to go through a rigorous process to be a professional engineer and be able to stamp drawings. The leetcode questions are just Data Structures and Algorithms questions. If you can talk through a couple different data structures, accurately describe the time complexity of your solution, and implement a half working solution you’ll pass. If you haven’t studied DS&A then I don’t think you have worked to perfect your craft, and I don’t want you on my team. This isn’t a trivia test, it’s a small bar that is trivial to get over.
  - ZeroSolstice 4y ago
    I think this does exist through university degree's and certifications(eq. board exams), previous work experience(eq. residency). I mean a doctor and engineer aren't expected to have mock operating rooms, CAD tooling, do side projects, etc on their own to refresh their skillsets going to another hospital or firm. Most of their case work or projects can also be used as part of their portfolio. This all required from companies that face no penalty if you start on day one and don't have proper tooling, make up applications and tooling as needed, no standard software workflows, side step security policies, etc. Seems a bit rich asking candidate's to be of such high caliber when the company isn't also held to same standard outside of high compensation. At least in the US exercise the 90 day period maybe plan 3 months of severance and move on. It probably amounts to the same effort anyway, not that I know of any company that is tracking this or making the data publicly available to study.
    - MarkMarine 4y ago
      I guess if you want to make 10x what a typical person makes, you jump through a couple hoops. I just fail to see the point in lamenting the process or purposefully removing yourself from it on some principle. DS&A studying and time complexity analysis, if you didn’t do it in college, can be learned in a couple months of focused practice. Or you took a class and payed attention. These seem like small things to me to get the big paycheck.

Aeolun 4y ago

> It shows lack of preparation and you can extrapolate that to the rest of the candidates work. If that person thinks the prep is silly, the prep we all know we need to do for a high paying job, and they just don't do it... it doesn't say anything positive. But that isn’t true. A surgeon isn’t asked to do a quick review of random medical facts before they take an interview. I refuse to submit to this ridiculous process, and therefore I’m always failing out in the leetcode part. I’d rather spend my time doing something useful or relaxing.

MarkMarine 4y ago
They take stringent board exams and go through residency, if that existed in software I’d agree with you. It exists in law, other engineering fields have to go through a rigorous process to be a professional engineer and be able to stamp drawings. The leetcode questions are just Data Structures and Algorithms questions. If you can talk through a couple different data structures, accurately describe the time complexity of your solution, and implement a half working solution you’ll pass. If you haven’t studied DS&A then I don’t think you have worked to perfect your craft, and I don’t want you on my team. This isn’t a trivia test, it’s a small bar that is trivial to get over.
- ZeroSolstice 4y ago
  I think this does exist through university degree's and certifications(eq. board exams), previous work experience(eq. residency). I mean a doctor and engineer aren't expected to have mock operating rooms, CAD tooling, do side projects, etc on their own to refresh their skillsets going to another hospital or firm. Most of their case work or projects can also be used as part of their portfolio. This all required from companies that face no penalty if you start on day one and don't have proper tooling, make up applications and tooling as needed, no standard software workflows, side step security policies, etc. Seems a bit rich asking candidate's to be of such high caliber when the company isn't also held to same standard outside of high compensation. At least in the US exercise the 90 day period maybe plan 3 months of severance and move on. It probably amounts to the same effort anyway, not that I know of any company that is tracking this or making the data publicly available to study.
  - MarkMarine 4y ago
    I guess if you want to make 10x what a typical person makes, you jump through a couple hoops. I just fail to see the point in lamenting the process or purposefully removing yourself from it on some principle. DS&A studying and time complexity analysis, if you didn’t do it in college, can be learned in a couple months of focused practice. Or you took a class and payed attention. These seem like small things to me to get the big paycheck.