5 ms·

As I once wrote here, Gruber and MG are not columnists or even pundits. They are simply Apple evangelists. They preach a faith-based approach to Apple's super

As I once wrote here, Gruber and MG are not columnists or even pundits. They are simply Apple evangelists. They preach a faith-based approach to Apple's superiority where no amount of evidence can sway them. Josh's description is dead accurate, but those of us who have been paying attention have known this for a long time. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3068516 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3068516

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
realize 15y ago
This is a common response, attacking the people who write nice things about Apple as "evangelists" rather than refuting their specific arguments. Perhaps they write nice things about Apple because Apple have been making really great products for a few years now. And if you actually read them you'll know that they do criticise Apple when they don't perform or do bad things.
- kenjackson 15y ago
  A lot of people write nice things about Apple (I even think they've executed exceptionally well with great products). Walt Mossberg, for example (even Josh Topolsky is generally 90% positive on Apple -- but also likes Android). But there are many evangelists who write almost exclusively positive things about Apple and furthermore attack things that threaten Apple. These evangelists maybe cordial to WP or WebOS, because they're no threat, but ICS -- they'll save their best faith-based sermons for it.
  - realize 15y ago
    I dont think its because they think it threatens Apple (let's be honest, Apple is going from strength to strength). I think it's because they've been making this same criticism since Android first came out, and its UI is still laggy and stutters. It's starting to look like that is just a permanent feature of Android, rather than something which should be fixed "soon". All their criticism boils down to this one thing: that Android doesn't have the same level of quality when it comes to UI interaction. They readily say nice things about the features, but the interaction model is still broken, and they keep pointing it out because its important to them. Its important to lots of people, and thats probably why the iphone is selling so well. Its obviously not important to people who prefer android, and thats fine. But since its not important to them they don't understand the criticism and ascribe people's love of the iphone to "faith" and "evangelism".
  - MrScruff 15y ago
    I think that's unfair. While WP7 obviously is derived from the 'physics based touch screen phone' category that the iPhone defined, it's also true that Microsoft took it in a different direction that genuinely looks different to iOS. They bet the farm on new design. A lot of the criticism Apple followers have of Android is that it feels like a 'good enough' iOS alternative designed primarily to prevent Apple achieving dominance. Having lived through the 80s, many tech enthusiasts are keen to see a competitive industry with a focus on quality, design and innovation. Google facilitating Samsung producing iPhone knock-offs doesn't seem to contribute to that.
- nextparadigms 15y ago
  You can't argue that Josh is the more mature one here. MG lives to say controversial/sensational things and get 200+ comments on his posts. And I haven't been following him in a long time, but I know some of his posts on his personal blog, have been much more bitter against Google than his usual posts on TechCruch. He sounded very defensive about Apple, even though there wasn't a reason to do that in that specific case. It was just his latest general attitude towards Google.
  - FaceKicker 15y ago
    By "argue that", did you mean "argue against the point that"? Sorry to sound nitpicky, but I was confused by the rest of your post after reading the first sentence.
- Pewpewarrows 15y ago
  Except in their cases it's been shown time and time again that these evangelists constantly push a pro-Apple and anti-Google agenda. It's equivalent to the naysayers who fundamentally believe that Fox News is a fair and balanced network. That's not to say that Apple never makes a good product or Google can do no wrong. They both have their fair share of successes and failures.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
Steko 15y ago
I like how you link to a post demonstrating your (presumably) "reason based" approach so well that pg had to moderate that discussion (full disclosure: I was part of this). Let's be honest about the "faith based" HN approach to declaring Gruber is an evangelist. You just say it, without any evidence or argument and then voila, yousuck up a ton of karma from like minded people. People who doubt me go search daring fireball threads on HN, it happens almost verbatim in every single one. Gruber over the last few years has linked to scores if not hundreds of articles documenting the small ways iOS is more polished. He also frequently links to things that could improve iOS, many of which are in other OS's including Android. Reasonable people might describe that as evidence not faith. Disagree with him? Maybe start your own blog and list scores or hundreds of counterexamples. Surely with all the Android enthusiasts there's many of these already? Say why he's wrong, don't just spout your conclusion.
- redthrowaway 15y ago
  I take issue with that tactic. "Show me the evidence!" is a worthy battle-cry, and I certainly don't take issue with those who use it, but it's not always applicable in all cases. DF articles are regularly posted on HN, and regularly make the front page. Many of us who read them have noticed a systemic bias in Gruber's writing, such that most everything Apple does is terrific and most everything their competitors do is terrible, or at least not good enough to measure up to Apple. Sure, he gives reasons and arguments, but they're always one-sided. These aren't really the kinds of conclusions one can give evidence for, beyond "read what he writes". Certainly, reasonable people might come away from his articles disagreeing with those of us who think his bias is growing more extreme, and that's fine. It's not, however, useful to say that we're wrong because we "have no evidence". We have the same evidence you do, and we interpret it differently. Put simply, whenever I see a link to daring fireball on HN, I can say with ~ 2σ confidence that it will a) be about Apple or one of its competitors, b) argue that, whatever the issue, Apple Does It Better, and c) have its arguments picked apart in the comments. This has been such a long term trend that it has become thoroughly predictable. That's fine, and Gruber's entitled to write whatever he wants about whatever he wants. That doesn't stop us from labeling him an Apple evangelist, and it doesn't mean we're wrong to do so.
pkaler 15y ago
Let me point you to the Pyramid of Refutation. http://i.imgur.com/QhGkT.jpg http://i.imgur.com/QhGkT.jpg Most arguments that I read that argue against Gruber and MG's point of view resort to either ad hominem or respond to tone. Calling Gruber and MG Apple evangelists does not refute their central point. I like Joshua Topolsky and The Verge a lot. I think they produce the best reviews in the business. Their audio and video casts are funny and informative. JT is probably the most informed Android reviewer. He's probably the most informed gadget reviewer. JT: "It doesn't get under my skin because I fundamentally disagree that Android 4.0 lacks the polish of iOS." JT: "I don't disagree with Gruber and MG. The iPhone is an amazing device. ... Not seeing it is not the issue — the issue is not being able to see it any other way." JT's argument is that these are not verifiable facts we are discussing. We are discussing opinions. But he also states that Android is polished. We would all be better off if he wrote an article titled "Android Is Polished" and listed the polish point for point.
- Daishiman 15y ago
  But the thing is this post doesn't have anything to do about whether Android is polished or not. It's a direct attack at the general posturing of Gruber and MG. And I see nothing wrong with that as it is clearly stated, and Joshua's reviews have made it clear where the phones shine and where they do not.
- sanderjd 15y ago
  I read his article less as a refutation than as a "get off my side!" argument. He seems to fundamentally agree with Gruber and MG but fundamentally disagree with their presentation of the argument. This is similar to how many of my friends and family members believe homosexuality to be immoral but believe picketing the funerals of gay people with offensive signs is awful. The Pyramid of Refutation (which is new to me and awesome, by the way) doesn't apply because the goal is not to refute.
  - imrehg 15y ago
    Wouldn't that be the "responding to the tone" part, 3rd from the bottom? That's not very high up!

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

realize 15y ago

This is a common response, attacking the people who write nice things about Apple as "evangelists" rather than refuting their specific arguments. Perhaps they write nice things about Apple because Apple have been making really great products for a few years now. And if you actually read them you'll know that they do criticise Apple when they don't perform or do bad things.

kenjackson 15y ago
A lot of people write nice things about Apple (I even think they've executed exceptionally well with great products). Walt Mossberg, for example (even Josh Topolsky is generally 90% positive on Apple -- but also likes Android). But there are many evangelists who write almost exclusively positive things about Apple and furthermore attack things that threaten Apple. These evangelists maybe cordial to WP or WebOS, because they're no threat, but ICS -- they'll save their best faith-based sermons for it.
- realize 15y ago
  I dont think its because they think it threatens Apple (let's be honest, Apple is going from strength to strength). I think it's because they've been making this same criticism since Android first came out, and its UI is still laggy and stutters. It's starting to look like that is just a permanent feature of Android, rather than something which should be fixed "soon". All their criticism boils down to this one thing: that Android doesn't have the same level of quality when it comes to UI interaction. They readily say nice things about the features, but the interaction model is still broken, and they keep pointing it out because its important to them. Its important to lots of people, and thats probably why the iphone is selling so well. Its obviously not important to people who prefer android, and thats fine. But since its not important to them they don't understand the criticism and ascribe people's love of the iphone to "faith" and "evangelism".
- MrScruff 15y ago
  I think that's unfair. While WP7 obviously is derived from the 'physics based touch screen phone' category that the iPhone defined, it's also true that Microsoft took it in a different direction that genuinely looks different to iOS. They bet the farm on new design. A lot of the criticism Apple followers have of Android is that it feels like a 'good enough' iOS alternative designed primarily to prevent Apple achieving dominance. Having lived through the 80s, many tech enthusiasts are keen to see a competitive industry with a focus on quality, design and innovation. Google facilitating Samsung producing iPhone knock-offs doesn't seem to contribute to that.
nextparadigms 15y ago
You can't argue that Josh is the more mature one here. MG lives to say controversial/sensational things and get 200+ comments on his posts. And I haven't been following him in a long time, but I know some of his posts on his personal blog, have been much more bitter against Google than his usual posts on TechCruch. He sounded very defensive about Apple, even though there wasn't a reason to do that in that specific case. It was just his latest general attitude towards Google.
- FaceKicker 15y ago
  By "argue that", did you mean "argue against the point that"? Sorry to sound nitpicky, but I was confused by the rest of your post after reading the first sentence.
Pewpewarrows 15y ago
Except in their cases it's been shown time and time again that these evangelists constantly push a pro-Apple and anti-Google agenda. It's equivalent to the naysayers who fundamentally believe that Fox News is a fair and balanced network. That's not to say that Apple never makes a good product or Google can do no wrong. They both have their fair share of successes and failures.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

Steko 15y ago

I like how you link to a post demonstrating your (presumably) "reason based" approach so well that pg had to moderate that discussion (full disclosure: I was part of this). Let's be honest about the "faith based" HN approach to declaring Gruber is an evangelist. You just say it, without any evidence or argument and then voila, yousuck up a ton of karma from like minded people. People who doubt me go search daring fireball threads on HN, it happens almost verbatim in every single one. Gruber over the last few years has linked to scores if not hundreds of articles documenting the small ways iOS is more polished. He also frequently links to things that could improve iOS, many of which are in other OS's including Android. Reasonable people might describe that as evidence not faith. Disagree with him? Maybe start your own blog and list scores or hundreds of counterexamples. Surely with all the Android enthusiasts there's many of these already? Say why he's wrong, don't just spout your conclusion.

redthrowaway 15y ago
I take issue with that tactic. "Show me the evidence!" is a worthy battle-cry, and I certainly don't take issue with those who use it, but it's not always applicable in all cases. DF articles are regularly posted on HN, and regularly make the front page. Many of us who read them have noticed a systemic bias in Gruber's writing, such that most everything Apple does is terrific and most everything their competitors do is terrible, or at least not good enough to measure up to Apple. Sure, he gives reasons and arguments, but they're always one-sided. These aren't really the kinds of conclusions one can give evidence for, beyond "read what he writes". Certainly, reasonable people might come away from his articles disagreeing with those of us who think his bias is growing more extreme, and that's fine. It's not, however, useful to say that we're wrong because we "have no evidence". We have the same evidence you do, and we interpret it differently. Put simply, whenever I see a link to daring fireball on HN, I can say with ~ 2σ confidence that it will a) be about Apple or one of its competitors, b) argue that, whatever the issue, Apple Does It Better, and c) have its arguments picked apart in the comments. This has been such a long term trend that it has become thoroughly predictable. That's fine, and Gruber's entitled to write whatever he wants about whatever he wants. That doesn't stop us from labeling him an Apple evangelist, and it doesn't mean we're wrong to do so.

pkaler 15y ago

Let me point you to the Pyramid of Refutation. http://i.imgur.com/QhGkT.jpg http://i.imgur.com/QhGkT.jpg Most arguments that I read that argue against Gruber and MG's point of view resort to either ad hominem or respond to tone. Calling Gruber and MG Apple evangelists does not refute their central point. I like Joshua Topolsky and The Verge a lot. I think they produce the best reviews in the business. Their audio and video casts are funny and informative. JT is probably the most informed Android reviewer. He's probably the most informed gadget reviewer. JT: "It doesn't get under my skin because I fundamentally disagree that Android 4.0 lacks the polish of iOS." JT: "I don't disagree with Gruber and MG. The iPhone is an amazing device. ... Not seeing it is not the issue — the issue is not being able to see it any other way." JT's argument is that these are not verifiable facts we are discussing. We are discussing opinions. But he also states that Android is polished. We would all be better off if he wrote an article titled "Android Is Polished" and listed the polish point for point.

Daishiman 15y ago
But the thing is this post doesn't have anything to do about whether Android is polished or not. It's a direct attack at the general posturing of Gruber and MG. And I see nothing wrong with that as it is clearly stated, and Joshua's reviews have made it clear where the phones shine and where they do not.
sanderjd 15y ago
I read his article less as a refutation than as a "get off my side!" argument. He seems to fundamentally agree with Gruber and MG but fundamentally disagree with their presentation of the argument. This is similar to how many of my friends and family members believe homosexuality to be immoral but believe picketing the funerals of gay people with offensive signs is awful. The Pyramid of Refutation (which is new to me and awesome, by the way) doesn't apply because the goal is not to refute.
- imrehg 15y ago
  Wouldn't that be the "responding to the tone" part, 3rd from the bottom? That's not very high up!