10 ms·

Well, there’s also the point that a person might even regret comments they made! But the ban is forever, there is zero transparency, and no appeal.

tptacek 4y ago
Why would there be? They're not obligated to provide service to you.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  Sure, but do you really want to live in a world where a 3rd party can block your employment for something you said that is merely offensive but not against the law? Even worse, a ban with no a appeal process that lasts forever.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Again: I don't understand why anybody expects GitHub to moderate or adjudicate these dramas. They're a source code hosting site, not a university disciplinary board.
    - ch4s3 4y ago
      I totally agree. I don't even see how they have any upside here, if they do this too much they'll lose business and doing it at all invites people to demand that they keep doing it.
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      I don't understand. The problem is that they did want to moderate/adjudicate this across the entire site.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        No: a user caused problems for them, and they kicked them off the site, the same way you'd get kicked out of a McDonalds for walking in without pants. If you do the Internet equivalent of walking into GitHub without pants and they kick you off, and you gave them money, we can have a conversation about whether they should give you your money back (I guess I probably would). But other than that, what's there to talk about? Make a new account that isn't traceable to the reputation you lit on fire, or go to any of the other perfectly viable Git hosting sites. You can even run your own. I get not wanting to tell your boss why your old GitHub account doesn't work anymore, but: you're going to have to have that conversation, probably.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        > Make a new account that isn't traceable to the reputation you lit on fire They tried... And doing that leaves a blade dangling above your head even if your behavior is perfect on the new account. Why can't there be anything you can do to wipe the slate mostly clean? Maybe even donating $100 to charity and giving github a few dollars for wasting their time.
        tptacek 4y ago
        If you really feel like GitHub bans are a "blade dangling over your head", use GitLab, or Source Hut. GitHub is not going to develop a charity-linked rehabilitation program for people who shit on their carpet. They're just going to ban you. They're a business, not a public utility. There's some unpleasant subtext to being blocked from GitHub that has nothing to do with someone's ability to write code: it's that your employer is certainly going to ask "uh, why are you not able to make a GitHub account?", and when you tell them "because I shat on GitHub's carpet", they may very well fire you. But that's on you, not GitHub.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        > They're a business, not a public utility. That's the standard line. And it has problems when applied to companies with tens of millions of users.
- siproprio 4y ago
  Well, in US law they might not be. But in other countries, is more complicated than that. In Brazil, those kinds of bans behaviors are not ok under consumer protection laws, and also their TOS where they don’t guarantee anything even for paid accounts is definitely not ok and suable for damages if something happens.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Good luck. You know that there are some optics to how responsive you are to these comments, and how un-responsive you are to comments that asked you to say more about what your "controversial comments" were. I'm beginning to think they might not just have been about ad blockers.
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      > I'm beginning to think they might not just have been about ad blockers. Did the first line about regretting the comments not indicate that pretty clearly? I really don't want to accuse you of being deceptive for rhetorical effect, but are you actually "beginning" to think this? Am I completely misreading your comments? Edit: This comment was a waste of space and I didn't express myself well but I was half a minute too slow on the delete button.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        It's not at all clear to me what the comments were, and I don't think the level of regret matters really at all to the analysis. If I punch you in the nose, I will surely regret it moments later, but that isn't going to save me much trouble.
    - siproprio 4y ago
      I said in another comment, most of the comments were on the Python extension repo for Vscode, about the quality of the extension and feature choices, many people were criticizing as well, and the trend of moving towards closed source.
- MrWiffles 4y ago
  Because due to market share they’re effectively a monopoly and this ban has very real repercussions for the OP’s ability to make a living.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    No, they're not.
    - gw98 4y ago
      Github is indeed not a monopoly as far as a fitted out office building is not a monopoly. It does have an extremely high exit cost. And it's not reasonable for the owner of an office building to refuse access for your staff for saying something horrible about them. Offices (and SaaS products) are dangling on a thin thread. It doesn't take a lot to lose customers. Lots of them. Especially when working from home (hosted gitlab) is a reasonable option. Most offices near me are converted to housing. You can't convert github to housing so it has even less tangible value if it pisses users off which starts a chain reaction of risk. It's also bloody unreliable and in the forefront of people's attention for risk already.
    - MrWiffles 4y ago
      Okay then, let's see you try to get a job by telling the hiring manager, "by the way, GitHub has perma-banned me so if you hire me, you'll have to change your entire organization's usage from GitHub to something else." Let us know how that goes for you.

tptacek 4y ago

Why would there be? They're not obligated to provide service to you.

ch4s3 4y ago
Sure, but do you really want to live in a world where a 3rd party can block your employment for something you said that is merely offensive but not against the law? Even worse, a ban with no a appeal process that lasts forever.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Again: I don't understand why anybody expects GitHub to moderate or adjudicate these dramas. They're a source code hosting site, not a university disciplinary board.
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    I totally agree. I don't even see how they have any upside here, if they do this too much they'll lose business and doing it at all invites people to demand that they keep doing it.
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    I don't understand. The problem is that they did want to moderate/adjudicate this across the entire site.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      No: a user caused problems for them, and they kicked them off the site, the same way you'd get kicked out of a McDonalds for walking in without pants. If you do the Internet equivalent of walking into GitHub without pants and they kick you off, and you gave them money, we can have a conversation about whether they should give you your money back (I guess I probably would). But other than that, what's there to talk about? Make a new account that isn't traceable to the reputation you lit on fire, or go to any of the other perfectly viable Git hosting sites. You can even run your own. I get not wanting to tell your boss why your old GitHub account doesn't work anymore, but: you're going to have to have that conversation, probably.
      - Dylan16807 4y ago
        > Make a new account that isn't traceable to the reputation you lit on fire They tried... And doing that leaves a blade dangling above your head even if your behavior is perfect on the new account. Why can't there be anything you can do to wipe the slate mostly clean? Maybe even donating $100 to charity and giving github a few dollars for wasting their time.
        tptacek 4y ago
        If you really feel like GitHub bans are a "blade dangling over your head", use GitLab, or Source Hut. GitHub is not going to develop a charity-linked rehabilitation program for people who shit on their carpet. They're just going to ban you. They're a business, not a public utility. There's some unpleasant subtext to being blocked from GitHub that has nothing to do with someone's ability to write code: it's that your employer is certainly going to ask "uh, why are you not able to make a GitHub account?", and when you tell them "because I shat on GitHub's carpet", they may very well fire you. But that's on you, not GitHub.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        > They're a business, not a public utility. That's the standard line. And it has problems when applied to companies with tens of millions of users.
siproprio 4y ago
Well, in US law they might not be. But in other countries, is more complicated than that. In Brazil, those kinds of bans behaviors are not ok under consumer protection laws, and also their TOS where they don’t guarantee anything even for paid accounts is definitely not ok and suable for damages if something happens.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Good luck. You know that there are some optics to how responsive you are to these comments, and how un-responsive you are to comments that asked you to say more about what your "controversial comments" were. I'm beginning to think they might not just have been about ad blockers.
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    > I'm beginning to think they might not just have been about ad blockers. Did the first line about regretting the comments not indicate that pretty clearly? I really don't want to accuse you of being deceptive for rhetorical effect, but are you actually "beginning" to think this? Am I completely misreading your comments? Edit: This comment was a waste of space and I didn't express myself well but I was half a minute too slow on the delete button.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      It's not at all clear to me what the comments were, and I don't think the level of regret matters really at all to the analysis. If I punch you in the nose, I will surely regret it moments later, but that isn't going to save me much trouble.
  - siproprio 4y ago
    I said in another comment, most of the comments were on the Python extension repo for Vscode, about the quality of the extension and feature choices, many people were criticizing as well, and the trend of moving towards closed source.
MrWiffles 4y ago
Because due to market share they’re effectively a monopoly and this ban has very real repercussions for the OP’s ability to make a living.
- tptacek 4y ago
  No, they're not.
  - gw98 4y ago
    Github is indeed not a monopoly as far as a fitted out office building is not a monopoly. It does have an extremely high exit cost. And it's not reasonable for the owner of an office building to refuse access for your staff for saying something horrible about them. Offices (and SaaS products) are dangling on a thin thread. It doesn't take a lot to lose customers. Lots of them. Especially when working from home (hosted gitlab) is a reasonable option. Most offices near me are converted to housing. You can't convert github to housing so it has even less tangible value if it pisses users off which starts a chain reaction of risk. It's also bloody unreliable and in the forefront of people's attention for risk already.
  - MrWiffles 4y ago
    Okay then, let's see you try to get a job by telling the hiring manager, "by the way, GitHub has perma-banned me so if you hire me, you'll have to change your entire organization's usage from GitHub to something else." Let us know how that goes for you.