23 ms·

Putting aside the problems inherent to all forms of non-physical cash, it's one of those projects that, if I had a few spare lifetimes, I'd volunteer to work on

Putting aside the problems inherent to all forms of non-physical cash, it's one of those projects that, if I had a few spare lifetimes, I'd volunteer to work on for free. Perhaps the only credible, open, democratising, taxable, pseudonymous electronic approximation to actual "digital cash"?

ETH_start 4y ago
- imtringued 4y ago
  Digital receipts are not a back door.
- riedel 4y ago
  Many crypto currencies provide a backdoor for hyper capitalists, organized crime, foreign bad actors and tax criminals into our system. It is totally OK IMHO to affront this part of the 'free society' from time to time. Beyond that I would not describe taxability as a backdoor...
  - ETH_start 4y ago
    - riedel 4y ago
      Interesting that you know what I believe in. What I believe is though, that if one has totalitarian intention you would opt to support other things rather than taler. (Like payment via WeChat or Google Pay)
      - ETH_start 4y ago
        If you don't support prohibiting fully electronic cash and don't support mass surveillance, I don't see why you would support a surveillance payment system that could only gain market adoption by the government banning its more private alternatives. As to your second point, one may be inclined toward socialism, and so prefer a more fully government controlled, less corporate friendly brand of totalitarian mass-surveillance.
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  It's not a "back door" it's a front door for taxation. It says so on the tin!
  - ETH_start 4y ago
    Whatever you want to call it, it explicitly invades people's privacy. It would only gain adoption if the alternative, which is digital cash, is prohibited, in which case privacy in private financial interactions would be criminalized and we would be subject to warrantless mass surveillance.
    - cowtools 4y ago
      This is false.
      - ETH_start 4y ago
        Can you elaborate? Because I'm certain it's not.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      Bitcoin publishes every transaction anyone has ever done in plaintext.
      - ETH_start 4y ago
        There are blockchains that don't do that.
recuter 4y ago
That is a lot to put aside. Of course physical/legacy cash has its own problems. They are all the same problems at root though what with human nature being what it is. You're simply eager to trade one set of problems for the other as nobody can stop you from writing software but you are not authorized to write laws. Say you were god-emperor of the world with the power to redesign, and enforce, how physical cash and existing monetary/payments systems work in real life - it becomes a distinction without a difference. Somehow - despite all the good intentions - we always end up with an eclectic mix of nerds reinventing wheels, self righteous power mad Che Guevara's, opportunistic grifters, and lottery players.
- imtringued 4y ago
  Obviously because that is how the system was designed. What did you expect? Without the ability to express negative interest rates the only way for the system to continue is through grifting. I mean think about for a second. Positive rates mean more want to borrow than others want to save. Negative rates mean less people want to borrow than others want to save. If you don't think borrowers have a right to repay their debts then what exactly did people expect to happen? Are we supposed to blame debtors for their systematic inability to pay even though we decided they don't have the right to repay?
  - recuter 4y ago
    > Without the ability to express negative interest rates the only way for the system to continue is through grifting. I mean think about for a second. Positive rates mean more want to borrow than others want to save. I'm not sure what you mean. The European Central Bank has dabbled with negative interest rates. So have others. Anything you can express in a system like Taler you could conceivably replicate in existing financial systems, it always just comes down to political will.
kybernetyk 4y ago
>taxable nah thanks
- Spivak 4y ago
  If your vision for the future is a form of money that enables massive scale tax evasion you probably won’t get a whole lot of buy-in from the people with guns who are funded by taxes.
  - kybernetyk 4y ago
    The thugs who take your money by force using guns don’t like the idea of not taking your money? You don’t say.
  - isitmadeofglass 4y ago
    There’s little chance that any form of digital currency that does not allow for tax evasion at then same level we currently have will ever take off. The people doing the tax evasion are the ones running the world.

ETH_start 4y ago

imtringued 4y ago
Digital receipts are not a back door.
riedel 4y ago
Many crypto currencies provide a backdoor for hyper capitalists, organized crime, foreign bad actors and tax criminals into our system. It is totally OK IMHO to affront this part of the 'free society' from time to time. Beyond that I would not describe taxability as a backdoor...
- ETH_start 4y ago
  - riedel 4y ago
    Interesting that you know what I believe in. What I believe is though, that if one has totalitarian intention you would opt to support other things rather than taler. (Like payment via WeChat or Google Pay)
    - ETH_start 4y ago
      If you don't support prohibiting fully electronic cash and don't support mass surveillance, I don't see why you would support a surveillance payment system that could only gain market adoption by the government banning its more private alternatives. As to your second point, one may be inclined toward socialism, and so prefer a more fully government controlled, less corporate friendly brand of totalitarian mass-surveillance.
nonrandomstring 4y ago
It's not a "back door" it's a front door for taxation. It says so on the tin!
- ETH_start 4y ago
  Whatever you want to call it, it explicitly invades people's privacy. It would only gain adoption if the alternative, which is digital cash, is prohibited, in which case privacy in private financial interactions would be criminalized and we would be subject to warrantless mass surveillance.
  - cowtools 4y ago
    This is false.
    - ETH_start 4y ago
      Can you elaborate? Because I'm certain it's not.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Bitcoin publishes every transaction anyone has ever done in plaintext.
    - ETH_start 4y ago
      There are blockchains that don't do that.

recuter 4y ago

That is a lot to put aside. Of course physical/legacy cash has its own problems. They are all the same problems at root though what with human nature being what it is. You're simply eager to trade one set of problems for the other as nobody can stop you from writing software but you are not authorized to write laws. Say you were god-emperor of the world with the power to redesign, and enforce, how physical cash and existing monetary/payments systems work in real life - it becomes a distinction without a difference. Somehow - despite all the good intentions - we always end up with an eclectic mix of nerds reinventing wheels, self righteous power mad Che Guevara's, opportunistic grifters, and lottery players.

imtringued 4y ago
Obviously because that is how the system was designed. What did you expect? Without the ability to express negative interest rates the only way for the system to continue is through grifting. I mean think about for a second. Positive rates mean more want to borrow than others want to save. Negative rates mean less people want to borrow than others want to save. If you don't think borrowers have a right to repay their debts then what exactly did people expect to happen? Are we supposed to blame debtors for their systematic inability to pay even though we decided they don't have the right to repay?
- recuter 4y ago
  > Without the ability to express negative interest rates the only way for the system to continue is through grifting. I mean think about for a second. Positive rates mean more want to borrow than others want to save. I'm not sure what you mean. The European Central Bank has dabbled with negative interest rates. So have others. Anything you can express in a system like Taler you could conceivably replicate in existing financial systems, it always just comes down to political will.

kybernetyk 4y ago

>taxable nah thanks

Spivak 4y ago
If your vision for the future is a form of money that enables massive scale tax evasion you probably won’t get a whole lot of buy-in from the people with guns who are funded by taxes.
- kybernetyk 4y ago
  The thugs who take your money by force using guns don’t like the idea of not taking your money? You don’t say.
- isitmadeofglass 4y ago
  There’s little chance that any form of digital currency that does not allow for tax evasion at then same level we currently have will ever take off. The people doing the tax evasion are the ones running the world.