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Why lithium is not considered in the same category as fossil fuels? I mean, it is technically used as a fuel that you need to keep "energising" and it becomes "

Why lithium is not considered in the same category as fossil fuels? I mean, it is technically used as a fuel that you need to keep "energising" and it becomes "spent" after nth "energising'. Whereas e.g. diesel comes "pre-charged" and is "spent" after first use? I read conflicting articles which one is more environment friendly.

dalyons 4y ago
Because it doesn’t become “spent”, you can just recycle it back into new batteries at nearly 100% recovery.
- varispeed 4y ago
  How the process of recycling looks like in terms of energy needed to perform it, use of chemicals like solvents in the process - can these be recovered too? I see I am being downvoted. It's like walking on eggshells asking these questions these days.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago
    Alright, I’ll foolishly take a stab. It feels that you are arguing in bad faith. Because transitioning to lithium/electrification is not perfect, we should just shutter the idea entirely? Will it take more energy/metal/resource extraction to transition away from fossil fuels? Yes. Will the be some amount of novel environmental damage (different from what happens for the petroleum economy)? Yes. Long term does it seem the best possible option available to humanity? Yes.
advisedwang 4y ago
Lithium car batteries can be cycled 1500-2000 times. Fossil fuels get 1 cycle. 3 orders of magnitude is a categorical difference. [1] https://www.midtronics.com/blog/do-electric-car-ev-batteries-degrade-over-time/ https://www.midtronics.com/blog/do-electric-car-ev-batteries...
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  And then when you're done, the lithium in the battery is recycled into a new one.
- asdff 4y ago
  Thats just because we don't care about reusing spent carbon. If we wanted to sequester all carbon into trees that we use again for fuel, for example, you can cycle atoms of carbon infinitely, and therefore power your vehicle purely from the sunlight energy that structures the chemistry of your woody carbon fuel without needing to build and replace solar panels every few decades.
  - advisedwang 4y ago
    There are quite a few technologies that attempt to use chemical energy storage, but none of them are as well developed as electricity/batteries: - The hydrogen economy. Currently hydrogen generation is very expensive and there's no distribution system yet because of H2's physical properties. - Biodiesel. Looks promising, but basically limited by inputs. - Fuel cells can potentially be run reversibly, so you could have the same chemical medium being converted back-and-forth with a charger instead of lithium. I'm not very familiar, but I understand physical and chemical constraints mean this mode is difficult to manufacture and operate in practice.
    - asdff 4y ago
      You can make fuel with yeast today and power your car with it. Go to the grocery store, buy a packet of bakers yeast and some granulated sugar, and distill your sugar wine into liquor. In fact you can probably use any locally available plant material; people make hooch from grass even. The issue is just that gallon for gallon, subsidies make things like corn based ethanol or natural gasoline cheaper. Subsidies can change however, and incentives will shift and behavior will change accordingly. https://www.ucf.edu/news/ucf-researchers-ethanol-fuel-cells-offer-new-alternative-to-power-cars-technology/ https://www.ucf.edu/news/ucf-researchers-ethanol-fuel-cells-...
perilunar 4y ago
> it is technically used as a fuel that you need to keep "energising" No. The lithium is the fuel tank, not the fuel.

dalyons 4y ago

Because it doesn’t become “spent”, you can just recycle it back into new batteries at nearly 100% recovery.

varispeed 4y ago
How the process of recycling looks like in terms of energy needed to perform it, use of chemicals like solvents in the process - can these be recovered too? I see I am being downvoted. It's like walking on eggshells asking these questions these days.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago
  Alright, I’ll foolishly take a stab. It feels that you are arguing in bad faith. Because transitioning to lithium/electrification is not perfect, we should just shutter the idea entirely? Will it take more energy/metal/resource extraction to transition away from fossil fuels? Yes. Will the be some amount of novel environmental damage (different from what happens for the petroleum economy)? Yes. Long term does it seem the best possible option available to humanity? Yes.

advisedwang 4y ago

Lithium car batteries can be cycled 1500-2000 times. Fossil fuels get 1 cycle. 3 orders of magnitude is a categorical difference. [1] https://www.midtronics.com/blog/do-electric-car-ev-batteries-degrade-over-time/ https://www.midtronics.com/blog/do-electric-car-ev-batteries...

rootusrootus 4y ago
And then when you're done, the lithium in the battery is recycled into a new one.
asdff 4y ago
Thats just because we don't care about reusing spent carbon. If we wanted to sequester all carbon into trees that we use again for fuel, for example, you can cycle atoms of carbon infinitely, and therefore power your vehicle purely from the sunlight energy that structures the chemistry of your woody carbon fuel without needing to build and replace solar panels every few decades.
- advisedwang 4y ago
  There are quite a few technologies that attempt to use chemical energy storage, but none of them are as well developed as electricity/batteries: - The hydrogen economy. Currently hydrogen generation is very expensive and there's no distribution system yet because of H2's physical properties. - Biodiesel. Looks promising, but basically limited by inputs. - Fuel cells can potentially be run reversibly, so you could have the same chemical medium being converted back-and-forth with a charger instead of lithium. I'm not very familiar, but I understand physical and chemical constraints mean this mode is difficult to manufacture and operate in practice.
  - asdff 4y ago
    You can make fuel with yeast today and power your car with it. Go to the grocery store, buy a packet of bakers yeast and some granulated sugar, and distill your sugar wine into liquor. In fact you can probably use any locally available plant material; people make hooch from grass even. The issue is just that gallon for gallon, subsidies make things like corn based ethanol or natural gasoline cheaper. Subsidies can change however, and incentives will shift and behavior will change accordingly. https://www.ucf.edu/news/ucf-researchers-ethanol-fuel-cells-offer-new-alternative-to-power-cars-technology/ https://www.ucf.edu/news/ucf-researchers-ethanol-fuel-cells-...

perilunar 4y ago

> it is technically used as a fuel that you need to keep "energising" No. The lithium is the fuel tank, not the fuel.