7 ms·

Rare earth mineral and lithium extraction is going to be the greatest disaster the world has ever seen because ocean floors will be plundered - the damage to th

Rare earth mineral and lithium extraction is going to be the greatest disaster the world has ever seen because ocean floors will be plundered - the damage to the planet whether at sea or on land will be unprecedented. It is surreal how naive people are about both this plus the huge lithium batteries high temperature fire risks and associated high voltage electrocution. There is a reason we went from high pressure steam power to a lower pressure oil and gas based economy after the Victorian era.

AnotherGoodName 4y ago
The alternative is gas. 100x more energy dense than lithium and it hasn't been great for the environment to say the least.
- olivermarks 4y ago
  Chile is already being ruined. Pay close attention to the lithium triangle as it expands and the state the planet is left in after being mined https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/01/south-america-s-lithium-fields-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/01/south-america-s-li... Why is lithium extraction bad for the environment? Any type of resource extraction is harmful to the planet. This is because removing these raw materials can result in soil degradation, water shortages, biodiversity loss, damage to ecosystem functions and an increase in global warming. But when we think of extraction, we think of fossil fuels like coal and gas. Unfortunately, lithium also falls under the same umbrella, despite paving the way for an electric future.. Lithium can be described as the non-renewable mineral that makes renewable energy possible - often touted as the next oil.
  - VBprogrammer 4y ago
    But it isn't lost or scattered into the atmosphere. It's kept well contained in a nice container which can be moved around easily with a forklift. The metals can be reprocessed and turned back into more batteries. Even first generation Leaf batteries are still being sold for reasonable sums of money so we haven't even reached the stage were we are recycling them in ernest yet.
    - olivermarks 4y ago
      The recycling processes and costs are astronomical and environmentally damaging. https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/are-lithium-ion-batteries-recyclable https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/are-lithium-ion-batteries-... As lithium batteries degrade they become more unstable and fire prone. I'm sure you're familiar with what happens to your laptop battery as it ages - shorter and shorter life, swelling etc.
      - rootusrootus 4y ago
        You're thinking of a particular kind of battery with a flammable electrolyte. Other popular chemistries (LFP being the most obvious) aren't anywhere near as fire-prone. And of course, laptop batteries get worked -much- harder and treated to much harsher environments than any EV battery.
        olivermarks 4y ago
        Teslas use LFP batteries https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k?t=77 https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k?t=77
        philipkglass 4y ago
        That video is from January 2021. Tesla didn't start using LFP batteries in their non-Chinese vehicles before October 2021: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batteries-in-all-standard-range-cars.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batte... https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/TWPKBV_TSLA_Q3_2021_Quarterly_Update_SI1AKE.pdf https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/TWPKBV_TSLA_Q3_2021_Quart... (page 7)
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    Lithium is non-renewable (we have a finite supply of it), but it's also not a consumable so this is rather less of an issue. Lithium in batteries is more comparable to steel in car bodies than fossil fuels.
    - olivermarks 4y ago
      Cars used to be made of steel and were very recyclable. More recently they are mostly made of plastics and alloys that are not easily recyclable. Lithium is extremely hard to recycle.
      - rootusrootus 4y ago
        > Cars used to be made of steel and were very recyclable. More recently they are mostly made of plastics and alloys that are not easily recyclable. 50/50, actually.
        olivermarks 4y ago
        There is still some steel in the core load bearing areas of modern vehicle but they are predominantly alloys. I'd say around 60% alloys, 35% plastics and 5% steel would be an average
        tuatoru 4y ago
        Let's all just make up numbers when we could find them with 15 seconds' effort. https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter4/transportation-sustainability-decarbonization/material-components-car/ https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter4/transportat... Ferrous metals 65%.
        olivermarks 4y ago
        1 Ferrous metal blends with other materials are increasingly the main components of vehicles. MMC etc. Where body shops used to straighten collision damage on jigs to pull out damaged steel chassis, bodyshells etc the modern composites are very hard to repair, containing all sorts of materials including steel, alloys, plastics etc. They are also hard to recycle. 2 How old is that graphic? 3 Manners
  - kortilla 4y ago
    > Why is lithium extraction bad for the environment? Any type of resource extraction is harmful to the planet. This is because removing these raw materials can result in soil degradation, water shortages, biodiversity loss, damage to ecosystem functions and an increase in global warming. Are you trying to argue that using fossil fuels is better for the environment? It’s not clear if you’re using this opportunity to complain about mining in general or if you’re arguing that we are better off with petrol cars.
    - Choco31415 4y ago
      They’re directly quoting text from the article. See the section “ Why is lithium extraction bad for the environment?”.
    - asdff 4y ago
      If we develop a proper biofuel then we are going to wish we still had carbon powered cars imo. The issue with carbon fuel is that it gets put into the atmosphere and not recaptured, thus warming the planet and disturbing ecology. Once a method is used to capture this carbon organically, however, then carbon just becomes a transient used delivery device and a store for solar energy that powers the underlying photosynthesis to restructure atmospheric carbon into solids. A tree trunk or a pound of green algae becomes a fungible unit of energy. Everything changes.
  - tuatoru 4y ago
    > Chile is already being ruined. By copper mining. Lithium is unnoticeable in comparison.
- antihero 4y ago
  Or renewables and mass transit
someweirdperson 4y ago
> and associated high voltage electrocution. I am not aware of any cars using high voltage [0] yet. But of course getting zapped by low voltage is bad enough. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_voltage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_voltage
- olivermarks 4y ago
  https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20210113.aspx https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20210113.as... Risks to Emergency Responders from High-Voltage, Lithium-Ion Battery Fires Addressed in Safety Report Actions sought by the NTSB in the four safety recommendations issued Wednesday include: Factoring the availability of a manufacturer’s emergency response guide, and its adherence to International Organization for Standardization standard 17840 and SAE International recommended practice J2990, when determining a U.S. New Car Assessment Program score. Continued research on ways to mitigate or deenergize stranded energy in high-voltage lithium-ion batteries. Continued research on ways to reduce the hazards associated with thermal runaway resulting from high-speed, high-severity crashes. Manufacturer emergency response guides modeled on ISO standard 17840 and SAE International recommended practice J2990. Incorporation of vehicle-specific information in emergency response guides for: Fighting high-voltage lithium-ion battery fires. Mitigating thermal runaway and the risk of high-voltage lithium-ion battery reignition. Mitigating risks associated with stranded energy in high-voltage lithium-ion batteries during emergency response and before a damaged electric vehicle is removed from the scene. Safely storing an electric vehicle with a damaged high-voltage lithium-ion battery. Providing information and available guidance to first responders and other crash scene workers about fire risks associated with high-voltage lithium-ion battery fires in electric vehicles. Fires in electric vehicles powered by high-voltage lithium-ion batteries pose the risk of electric shock to emergency responders from exposure to the high-voltage components of a damaged lithium-ion battery. A further risk is that damaged cells in the battery can experience thermal runaway – uncontrolled increases in temperature and pressure – which can lead to battery reignition. The risks of electric shock and battery reignition/fire arise from the “stranded” energy that remains in a damaged battery.
  - olivermarks 4y ago
rootusrootus 4y ago
> There is a reason we went from high pressure steam power to a lower pressure oil and gas based economy after the Victorian era. First, steam is not a fuel. Second, where did you get the idea that steam pressure is higher than what we see with oil and gas fueled machines?
- olivermarks 4y ago
  Steam energy was what powered the industrial revolution, and is now a major enabler of the production of electricity. https://petrotechinc.com/how-does-a-steam-turbine-work/ https://petrotechinc.com/how-does-a-steam-turbine-work/ Unfortunately we are burning huge amounts of wood to produce electricity in this way. I prefer small modular nuclear reactors if we want to be environmentally efficient. https://www.wbdg.org/resources/biomass-electricity-generation#:~:text=In%20a%20direct%20combustion%20system,produce%20mechanical%20or%20electrical%20energy https://www.wbdg.org/resources/biomass-electricity-generatio....

AnotherGoodName 4y ago

The alternative is gas. 100x more energy dense than lithium and it hasn't been great for the environment to say the least.

olivermarks 4y ago
Chile is already being ruined. Pay close attention to the lithium triangle as it expands and the state the planet is left in after being mined https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/01/south-america-s-lithium-fields-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/01/south-america-s-li... Why is lithium extraction bad for the environment? Any type of resource extraction is harmful to the planet. This is because removing these raw materials can result in soil degradation, water shortages, biodiversity loss, damage to ecosystem functions and an increase in global warming. But when we think of extraction, we think of fossil fuels like coal and gas. Unfortunately, lithium also falls under the same umbrella, despite paving the way for an electric future.. Lithium can be described as the non-renewable mineral that makes renewable energy possible - often touted as the next oil.
- VBprogrammer 4y ago
  But it isn't lost or scattered into the atmosphere. It's kept well contained in a nice container which can be moved around easily with a forklift. The metals can be reprocessed and turned back into more batteries. Even first generation Leaf batteries are still being sold for reasonable sums of money so we haven't even reached the stage were we are recycling them in ernest yet.
  - olivermarks 4y ago
    The recycling processes and costs are astronomical and environmentally damaging. https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/are-lithium-ion-batteries-recyclable https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/are-lithium-ion-batteries-... As lithium batteries degrade they become more unstable and fire prone. I'm sure you're familiar with what happens to your laptop battery as it ages - shorter and shorter life, swelling etc.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      You're thinking of a particular kind of battery with a flammable electrolyte. Other popular chemistries (LFP being the most obvious) aren't anywhere near as fire-prone. And of course, laptop batteries get worked -much- harder and treated to much harsher environments than any EV battery.
      - olivermarks 4y ago
        Teslas use LFP batteries https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k?t=77 https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k?t=77
        philipkglass 4y ago
        That video is from January 2021. Tesla didn't start using LFP batteries in their non-Chinese vehicles before October 2021: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batteries-in-all-standard-range-cars.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batte... https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/TWPKBV_TSLA_Q3_2021_Quarterly_Update_SI1AKE.pdf https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/TWPKBV_TSLA_Q3_2021_Quart... (page 7)
- nicoburns 4y ago
  Lithium is non-renewable (we have a finite supply of it), but it's also not a consumable so this is rather less of an issue. Lithium in batteries is more comparable to steel in car bodies than fossil fuels.
  - olivermarks 4y ago
    Cars used to be made of steel and were very recyclable. More recently they are mostly made of plastics and alloys that are not easily recyclable. Lithium is extremely hard to recycle.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      > Cars used to be made of steel and were very recyclable. More recently they are mostly made of plastics and alloys that are not easily recyclable. 50/50, actually.
      - olivermarks 4y ago
        There is still some steel in the core load bearing areas of modern vehicle but they are predominantly alloys. I'd say around 60% alloys, 35% plastics and 5% steel would be an average
        tuatoru 4y ago
        Let's all just make up numbers when we could find them with 15 seconds' effort. https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter4/transportation-sustainability-decarbonization/material-components-car/ https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter4/transportat... Ferrous metals 65%.
        olivermarks 4y ago
        1 Ferrous metal blends with other materials are increasingly the main components of vehicles. MMC etc. Where body shops used to straighten collision damage on jigs to pull out damaged steel chassis, bodyshells etc the modern composites are very hard to repair, containing all sorts of materials including steel, alloys, plastics etc. They are also hard to recycle. 2 How old is that graphic? 3 Manners
- kortilla 4y ago
  > Why is lithium extraction bad for the environment? Any type of resource extraction is harmful to the planet. This is because removing these raw materials can result in soil degradation, water shortages, biodiversity loss, damage to ecosystem functions and an increase in global warming. Are you trying to argue that using fossil fuels is better for the environment? It’s not clear if you’re using this opportunity to complain about mining in general or if you’re arguing that we are better off with petrol cars.
  - Choco31415 4y ago
    They’re directly quoting text from the article. See the section “ Why is lithium extraction bad for the environment?”.
  - asdff 4y ago
    If we develop a proper biofuel then we are going to wish we still had carbon powered cars imo. The issue with carbon fuel is that it gets put into the atmosphere and not recaptured, thus warming the planet and disturbing ecology. Once a method is used to capture this carbon organically, however, then carbon just becomes a transient used delivery device and a store for solar energy that powers the underlying photosynthesis to restructure atmospheric carbon into solids. A tree trunk or a pound of green algae becomes a fungible unit of energy. Everything changes.
- tuatoru 4y ago
  > Chile is already being ruined. By copper mining. Lithium is unnoticeable in comparison.
antihero 4y ago
Or renewables and mass transit

someweirdperson 4y ago

> and associated high voltage electrocution. I am not aware of any cars using high voltage [0] yet. But of course getting zapped by low voltage is bad enough. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_voltage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_voltage

olivermarks 4y ago
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20210113.aspx https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20210113.as... Risks to Emergency Responders from High-Voltage, Lithium-Ion Battery Fires Addressed in Safety Report Actions sought by the NTSB in the four safety recommendations issued Wednesday include: Factoring the availability of a manufacturer’s emergency response guide, and its adherence to International Organization for Standardization standard 17840 and SAE International recommended practice J2990, when determining a U.S. New Car Assessment Program score. Continued research on ways to mitigate or deenergize stranded energy in high-voltage lithium-ion batteries. Continued research on ways to reduce the hazards associated with thermal runaway resulting from high-speed, high-severity crashes. Manufacturer emergency response guides modeled on ISO standard 17840 and SAE International recommended practice J2990. Incorporation of vehicle-specific information in emergency response guides for: Fighting high-voltage lithium-ion battery fires. Mitigating thermal runaway and the risk of high-voltage lithium-ion battery reignition. Mitigating risks associated with stranded energy in high-voltage lithium-ion batteries during emergency response and before a damaged electric vehicle is removed from the scene. Safely storing an electric vehicle with a damaged high-voltage lithium-ion battery. Providing information and available guidance to first responders and other crash scene workers about fire risks associated with high-voltage lithium-ion battery fires in electric vehicles. Fires in electric vehicles powered by high-voltage lithium-ion batteries pose the risk of electric shock to emergency responders from exposure to the high-voltage components of a damaged lithium-ion battery. A further risk is that damaged cells in the battery can experience thermal runaway – uncontrolled increases in temperature and pressure – which can lead to battery reignition. The risks of electric shock and battery reignition/fire arise from the “stranded” energy that remains in a damaged battery.
- olivermarks 4y ago

rootusrootus 4y ago

> There is a reason we went from high pressure steam power to a lower pressure oil and gas based economy after the Victorian era. First, steam is not a fuel. Second, where did you get the idea that steam pressure is higher than what we see with oil and gas fueled machines?

olivermarks 4y ago
Steam energy was what powered the industrial revolution, and is now a major enabler of the production of electricity. https://petrotechinc.com/how-does-a-steam-turbine-work/ https://petrotechinc.com/how-does-a-steam-turbine-work/ Unfortunately we are burning huge amounts of wood to produce electricity in this way. I prefer small modular nuclear reactors if we want to be environmentally efficient. https://www.wbdg.org/resources/biomass-electricity-generation#:~:text=In%20a%20direct%20combustion%20system,produce%20mechanical%20or%20electrical%20energy https://www.wbdg.org/resources/biomass-electricity-generatio....