7 ms·

It's not easy for people promoted into manager roles either. I'm a new manager who the first time is now exposed to salary details of my, now direct reports, fo

It's not easy for people promoted into manager roles either. I'm a new manager who the first time is now exposed to salary details of my, now direct reports, former co-workers. For the past couple of weeks I've been walking around thinking "how the hell does he make that much?! When I was at that level of experience I was paid $40k less". It's really affecting me to be honest. I'm seeing people in different light and resenting their pay. I'm resenting people being paid in some cases almost double what I was on a new comer to that role with no experience, we used to pay about 80k hour for a new starter in the role I now oversee, we now pay over 140k. That's barely less for a brand new starter than I was making a few months ago with 10 years more experience in the role. Salary matters suck for everyone, I hate dealing with this aspect of my job. Everybody just wants wants wants and act like children when they don't get.

cumshitpiss 4y ago
FactoryReboot 4y ago
If you really hate it that much is management for you? I’d learn to get more comfortable with it. Also it’s not fair to be mad at your coworkers cause you were underpaid. Be mad at the company or your bosses if anything.
- mclightning 4y ago
  this. really. I wouldn't want an envious manager.
wirrbel 4y ago
It seems you didn’t negotiate hard enough on your behalf (or others negotiated at the right time). The question you should ask yourself as a manager now is not the question whether you expect others to negotiate like you did, but how can you reach a pay level across the team that is somewhat balanced . The company I am working in has fairly strict guidance based on competences and experience which I do like. It makes sure that no one is payed much below or much above an estimated market rate. You won’t receive sometime into your team who is extremely overpayed because they were their manager‘s darling.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  This is a meme but it’s not really how it works, not entirely anyway. Take meta. If you joined today vs a year ago and everything else was the same you’d be making over 30% as much. Companies generally don’t pay tenured people as much as new hires across the board. It’s not about negotiating.
  - moralestapia 4y ago
    Negotiation works when some company specifically wants you. If you're one of the other 99% of hires you're going to be placed at some salary which has been already budgeted and approved for your position. There's some leeway there but it's not more than a single digit percentage, although I agree with patio11 and others saying that an extra 5-10K/year just for asking politely is not a bad deal.
    - ryandrake 4y ago
      So, basically what you're saying is that the "Negotiate harder, bro" advice only really works for 1% of the world. So why is it always trotted out as the solution? I know HN is full of these Captains of Industry who merely glance at their bosses with an upturned eyebrow, and get $100K of RSUs thrown at them, but for the rest of the workforce, here's what negotiation looks like: [Me] Hi, I'd like a raise. [Co] Nope. [Me] OK, here are examples of the value I'm providing and how it's increased over time. [Co] Your current salary accounts for this. [Me] Other companies offer 20% more and I'm only asking for 10%. [Co] ... [Me] OK, I have an offer from the other company. Last chance. [Co] Well... Bye?
      - TechnicolorByte 4y ago
        HN, like people who browse Blind, has a massive selection bias towards the money-optimizing, Leetcode-grinding types.
      - moralestapia 4y ago
        I never said you couldn't go somewhere else, that's actually the advice to follow when you reached your ceiling wherever you are (and you have an offer ofc).
iLoveOncall 4y ago
You just need a different view on salary. From a company's perspective, your salary does not reward your skills or efforts, your salary is the strict minimum that is necessary for you to accept to work for them and to be happy enough to be productive. Turns out the minimum you accept is lower than some other people's minimum.
roody15 4y ago
Did you ever ask for a raise or more money? If so did they ever say no? In my experience many who complain about salary often failed to ever try and negotiate on behalf of themselves.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  Some of us think that doing our job should be enough to be fairly compensated without having to take on the additional duty of continually fighting for it. But since that isn't how things work in glorious capitalist utopia, I just slack off hard core instead. I don't need the money near as much as I need my time back.
  - shanusmagnus 4y ago
    Just wait till you see the comp in the glorious socialist utopia, you're gonna love that I bet.
    - harimau777 4y ago
      I think that a lot of people would be happy with America moving to the mix of social programs, taxation, and salary that Sweden or Norway have.
      - shanusmagnus 4y ago
        Surely. The point is all these systems have tradeoffs. I'm guessing OP would find things to be disappointed in there, too, as have many of the people who actually live in those places. edit: especially when it comes to comp, which was how this started. The left hand (as it were) criticizing comp in tech, and the right complaining about capitalism, is my favorite part.
- onion2k 4y ago
  There is an element of failure to negotiate, and to renegotiate, involved but if that's where your thinking stops you're missing the point. It's not just that the person involved didn't ask for a raise. It's also the fact that everyone above them who was privy to salary data accepted it. Every single person in a higher management role was perfectly OK with two people doing the same job being paid significantly different salaries. And then you start wondering if you're being underpaid too. Do all the people above you know how much of a sucker you are for accepting the lowball rate? It's a problem for people who get promoted to a level where they get to peek behind the curtain and see all the things that the company has been doing wrong all the time they've been there, and the realisation that all the other people are fine with it. It kind of gets to you after a while.
valdiorn 4y ago
> Everybody just wants wants wants and act like children when they don't get. Wow, what an immature attitude YOU have. Of course everyone "wants wants wants". You're displaying that attitude right now. You're feeling hurt about not getting more, because you want more. That's normal. That's OK. If someone offered to bump my salary to a million pounds for no reason, of course I'd take it. You should probably try asking for a pay rise. Pay, in tech, has everything to do with your negotiation power, and almost nothing to do with how good you are at your job. Your job is to maximise your salary. For the person paying the salary (your boss), their job is to minimise it. They're not doing it because they despise you, think less of you, or want to exact petty revenge on you. they do it because it's their job to keep costs down. Just like you would try to minimise the cost of servers, or software licenses. The sooner people understand this, the better for everyone. Now go and advocate for yourself. If you really feel under-paid, ask for a raise. Threaten to walk (be sure you can actually follow up on that). If your contribution to the company is deemed to be worth the money, you'll get it.
- lowercased 4y ago
  > If your contribution to the company is deemed to be worth the money, you'll get it. I've rarely seen individual contributions able to be evaluated 'fairly' at any scale. Your skills may be top notch, but you were focused on a project that was killed after 10 months because.... budget cuts? Bad management? Your contribution to the company in that case can be seen as a net negative, but it's largely out of your control. The OP should just leave and find a better gig. That might be slightly harder over the next year, and yeah, it sucks to do that, but it's how you get big raises. The people coming in at 140k are demonstrating that (in the above example). Trying too much 'negotiate for a raise' tips your hand that you're unhappy, and you will be treated differently if you make anything more than a casual ask (even then...).
  - valdiorn 4y ago
    > I've rarely seen individual contributions able to be evaluated 'fairly' at any scale. Your skills may be top notch, but you were focused on a project that was killed after 10 months because.... budget cuts? Bad management? Your contribution to the company in that case can be seen as a net negative, but it's largely out of your control. this is absolutely true. But everyone needs to decide for themselves if they want to work for a Google-esque company that does shit like that, or something smaller where you can have a material impact and your absence will be noticed and missed instantly. When you join a company, you are making an informed bet. You're betting that you can find successful projects to work on within the company, that the budget won't be slashed, that your manager isn't a sociopath who only promotes his drinking buddies, that half the company won't get fired within 6 months, that it won't go bankrupt. You won't always get it right, sometimes you just get dealt a bad hand, in which case; try again, don't sit tight for another 5 years hoping things will change; do something about it. Move projects and try again. Or find another job.
taude 4y ago
It's even harder when you're a manager, and you inherit direct reports who both make more money than you, and have more stock options than you, AND have been at the firm for a shorter duration than you, and they have minimal experience (but good tech chops).
scarface74 4y ago
>I hate dealing with this aspect of my job. Everybody just wants wants wants and act like children when they don't get. I go to work everyday for one reason: to exchange labor for money to support my addiction to food and shelter. All three things being nearly equal, my goal is to extract as much money for my labor as possible as long as my job choice doesn’t make me hate my life
- 0xRusty 4y ago
  I find it kind of sad that's all you get out of your job to be honest.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    What else do you think your job gets out of you besides an extraction of value for your labor? Please tell me you don’t believe the bullshit of a “mission” from a for profit company or that “we are family”.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Then why are you upset you were paid less than someone else?
madeofpalk 4y ago
The best managers I've ever had have always felt like they were genuine advocates for me towards the rest of the business. To push to pay me more, promote me, and share my concerns and other thoughts to the rest of the company. It doesn't sound like you're a great advocate for your reports.
- willnonya 4y ago
  This should be a two way advocacy. Advocate for the employees to the company. Advocate for the company to the employees. When they align in the middle they'll both succeed.
shanusmagnus 4y ago
Report back after you get a lump sump to allocate between the various people on your team for 2023 raises. That should be an exciting new growth opportunity for you.
willnonya 4y ago
You're not making yourself look very good here. If you didn't realize this was happening then you're niave. Your response is immature and selfish. Either accept this and start managing it to your advantage, your employees advantage and the companies or just accept that you've proven the Peter principle.
magwa101 4y ago
kennend3 4y ago
As a fellow manager I am with the other guy who responded, you come across as somewhat immature here. > Salary matters suck for everyone, I hate dealing with this aspect of my job. What exactly did you think your responsibility as a manager would be? I once knew a manager who had people reporting into him who made 10X as much as he did (yes, 10X). I asked him about this once and his response indicates what you expect from an excellent manager "they are taking risks that i don't take and they are compensated for those risks". You seem fixated on the past and salary issues instead of learning from this experience. Perhaps you can read up on how to negotiate and try to make more yourself? Maybe they were better at salary negotiations and this is why they earn what they do? Being a manager and "resenting people" isn't a good thing.
dangerface 4y ago
> Salary matters suck for everyone, I hate dealing with this aspect of my job. Everybody just wants wants wants and act like children when they don't get. Does everybody do this or is it just you? People are paid market rate if another business thinks you are worth more they will offer you more. You then go to your boss and ask them to meet or exceed the market rate for you. If you sell yourself as just another developer don't be surprised if your boss puts that expectation on your salery.

cumshitpiss 4y ago

FactoryReboot 4y ago

If you really hate it that much is management for you? I’d learn to get more comfortable with it. Also it’s not fair to be mad at your coworkers cause you were underpaid. Be mad at the company or your bosses if anything.

mclightning 4y ago
this. really. I wouldn't want an envious manager.

wirrbel 4y ago

It seems you didn’t negotiate hard enough on your behalf (or others negotiated at the right time). The question you should ask yourself as a manager now is not the question whether you expect others to negotiate like you did, but how can you reach a pay level across the team that is somewhat balanced . The company I am working in has fairly strict guidance based on competences and experience which I do like. It makes sure that no one is payed much below or much above an estimated market rate. You won’t receive sometime into your team who is extremely overpayed because they were their manager‘s darling.

endisneigh 4y ago
This is a meme but it’s not really how it works, not entirely anyway. Take meta. If you joined today vs a year ago and everything else was the same you’d be making over 30% as much. Companies generally don’t pay tenured people as much as new hires across the board. It’s not about negotiating.
- moralestapia 4y ago
  Negotiation works when some company specifically wants you. If you're one of the other 99% of hires you're going to be placed at some salary which has been already budgeted and approved for your position. There's some leeway there but it's not more than a single digit percentage, although I agree with patio11 and others saying that an extra 5-10K/year just for asking politely is not a bad deal.
  - ryandrake 4y ago
    So, basically what you're saying is that the "Negotiate harder, bro" advice only really works for 1% of the world. So why is it always trotted out as the solution? I know HN is full of these Captains of Industry who merely glance at their bosses with an upturned eyebrow, and get $100K of RSUs thrown at them, but for the rest of the workforce, here's what negotiation looks like: [Me] Hi, I'd like a raise. [Co] Nope. [Me] OK, here are examples of the value I'm providing and how it's increased over time. [Co] Your current salary accounts for this. [Me] Other companies offer 20% more and I'm only asking for 10%. [Co] ... [Me] OK, I have an offer from the other company. Last chance. [Co] Well... Bye?
    - TechnicolorByte 4y ago
      HN, like people who browse Blind, has a massive selection bias towards the money-optimizing, Leetcode-grinding types.
    - moralestapia 4y ago
      I never said you couldn't go somewhere else, that's actually the advice to follow when you reached your ceiling wherever you are (and you have an offer ofc).

iLoveOncall 4y ago

You just need a different view on salary. From a company's perspective, your salary does not reward your skills or efforts, your salary is the strict minimum that is necessary for you to accept to work for them and to be happy enough to be productive. Turns out the minimum you accept is lower than some other people's minimum.

roody15 4y ago

Did you ever ask for a raise or more money? If so did they ever say no? In my experience many who complain about salary often failed to ever try and negotiate on behalf of themselves.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
Some of us think that doing our job should be enough to be fairly compensated without having to take on the additional duty of continually fighting for it. But since that isn't how things work in glorious capitalist utopia, I just slack off hard core instead. I don't need the money near as much as I need my time back.
- shanusmagnus 4y ago
  Just wait till you see the comp in the glorious socialist utopia, you're gonna love that I bet.
  - harimau777 4y ago
    I think that a lot of people would be happy with America moving to the mix of social programs, taxation, and salary that Sweden or Norway have.
    - shanusmagnus 4y ago
      Surely. The point is all these systems have tradeoffs. I'm guessing OP would find things to be disappointed in there, too, as have many of the people who actually live in those places. edit: especially when it comes to comp, which was how this started. The left hand (as it were) criticizing comp in tech, and the right complaining about capitalism, is my favorite part.
onion2k 4y ago
There is an element of failure to negotiate, and to renegotiate, involved but if that's where your thinking stops you're missing the point. It's not just that the person involved didn't ask for a raise. It's also the fact that everyone above them who was privy to salary data accepted it. Every single person in a higher management role was perfectly OK with two people doing the same job being paid significantly different salaries. And then you start wondering if you're being underpaid too. Do all the people above you know how much of a sucker you are for accepting the lowball rate? It's a problem for people who get promoted to a level where they get to peek behind the curtain and see all the things that the company has been doing wrong all the time they've been there, and the realisation that all the other people are fine with it. It kind of gets to you after a while.

valdiorn 4y ago

> Everybody just wants wants wants and act like children when they don't get. Wow, what an immature attitude YOU have. Of course everyone "wants wants wants". You're displaying that attitude right now. You're feeling hurt about not getting more, because you want more. That's normal. That's OK. If someone offered to bump my salary to a million pounds for no reason, of course I'd take it. You should probably try asking for a pay rise. Pay, in tech, has everything to do with your negotiation power, and almost nothing to do with how good you are at your job. Your job is to maximise your salary. For the person paying the salary (your boss), their job is to minimise it. They're not doing it because they despise you, think less of you, or want to exact petty revenge on you. they do it because it's their job to keep costs down. Just like you would try to minimise the cost of servers, or software licenses. The sooner people understand this, the better for everyone. Now go and advocate for yourself. If you really feel under-paid, ask for a raise. Threaten to walk (be sure you can actually follow up on that). If your contribution to the company is deemed to be worth the money, you'll get it.

lowercased 4y ago
> If your contribution to the company is deemed to be worth the money, you'll get it. I've rarely seen individual contributions able to be evaluated 'fairly' at any scale. Your skills may be top notch, but you were focused on a project that was killed after 10 months because.... budget cuts? Bad management? Your contribution to the company in that case can be seen as a net negative, but it's largely out of your control. The OP should just leave and find a better gig. That might be slightly harder over the next year, and yeah, it sucks to do that, but it's how you get big raises. The people coming in at 140k are demonstrating that (in the above example). Trying too much 'negotiate for a raise' tips your hand that you're unhappy, and you will be treated differently if you make anything more than a casual ask (even then...).
- valdiorn 4y ago
  > I've rarely seen individual contributions able to be evaluated 'fairly' at any scale. Your skills may be top notch, but you were focused on a project that was killed after 10 months because.... budget cuts? Bad management? Your contribution to the company in that case can be seen as a net negative, but it's largely out of your control. this is absolutely true. But everyone needs to decide for themselves if they want to work for a Google-esque company that does shit like that, or something smaller where you can have a material impact and your absence will be noticed and missed instantly. When you join a company, you are making an informed bet. You're betting that you can find successful projects to work on within the company, that the budget won't be slashed, that your manager isn't a sociopath who only promotes his drinking buddies, that half the company won't get fired within 6 months, that it won't go bankrupt. You won't always get it right, sometimes you just get dealt a bad hand, in which case; try again, don't sit tight for another 5 years hoping things will change; do something about it. Move projects and try again. Or find another job.

taude 4y ago

It's even harder when you're a manager, and you inherit direct reports who both make more money than you, and have more stock options than you, AND have been at the firm for a shorter duration than you, and they have minimal experience (but good tech chops).

scarface74 4y ago

>I hate dealing with this aspect of my job. Everybody just wants wants wants and act like children when they don't get. I go to work everyday for one reason: to exchange labor for money to support my addiction to food and shelter. All three things being nearly equal, my goal is to extract as much money for my labor as possible as long as my job choice doesn’t make me hate my life

0xRusty 4y ago
I find it kind of sad that's all you get out of your job to be honest.
- scarface74 4y ago
  What else do you think your job gets out of you besides an extraction of value for your labor? Please tell me you don’t believe the bullshit of a “mission” from a for profit company or that “we are family”.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Then why are you upset you were paid less than someone else?

madeofpalk 4y ago

The best managers I've ever had have always felt like they were genuine advocates for me towards the rest of the business. To push to pay me more, promote me, and share my concerns and other thoughts to the rest of the company. It doesn't sound like you're a great advocate for your reports.

willnonya 4y ago
This should be a two way advocacy. Advocate for the employees to the company. Advocate for the company to the employees. When they align in the middle they'll both succeed.

shanusmagnus 4y ago

Report back after you get a lump sump to allocate between the various people on your team for 2023 raises. That should be an exciting new growth opportunity for you.

willnonya 4y ago

You're not making yourself look very good here. If you didn't realize this was happening then you're niave. Your response is immature and selfish. Either accept this and start managing it to your advantage, your employees advantage and the companies or just accept that you've proven the Peter principle.

magwa101 4y ago

kennend3 4y ago

As a fellow manager I am with the other guy who responded, you come across as somewhat immature here. > Salary matters suck for everyone, I hate dealing with this aspect of my job. What exactly did you think your responsibility as a manager would be? I once knew a manager who had people reporting into him who made 10X as much as he did (yes, 10X). I asked him about this once and his response indicates what you expect from an excellent manager "they are taking risks that i don't take and they are compensated for those risks". You seem fixated on the past and salary issues instead of learning from this experience. Perhaps you can read up on how to negotiate and try to make more yourself? Maybe they were better at salary negotiations and this is why they earn what they do? Being a manager and "resenting people" isn't a good thing.

dangerface 4y ago

> Salary matters suck for everyone, I hate dealing with this aspect of my job. Everybody just wants wants wants and act like children when they don't get. Does everybody do this or is it just you? People are paid market rate if another business thinks you are worth more they will offer you more. You then go to your boss and ask them to meet or exceed the market rate for you. If you sell yourself as just another developer don't be surprised if your boss puts that expectation on your salery.