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This is what makes it so dangerous for almost all major social media platforms to be controlled by the U.S. This is digital imperialism, American ideas and valu

This is what makes it so dangerous for almost all major social media platforms to be controlled by the U.S. This is digital imperialism, American ideas and values are inconspicuously spread through memes (in the original sense of the term) and foreign children, teenagers and young adults are raised on them. Any nation that wants to retain control over their culture and values should have social media sovereignty.

peacefulhat 4y ago
Japan's fault for not making much of anything to replace 2channel.
ehnto 4y ago
American politics has basically become common conversation in Australia in the last 6 years, to the point where you often see people chatting as if it is their own politics. I wouldn't be surprised if some Aussies truly believe we have republicans and democrats here or even remotely the same policy landscape.
- kkoncevicius 4y ago
  Same in Lithuania. We even had a "Black Lives Matter" rally here, when things were happening in USA. Media reported on it, mostly Lithuanian teens showed up, some skipped school to attend. I don't think there was a single black person. They even had some signs against police brutality, when in Lithuania most of incidents happen not by police but to police.
  - fabatka 4y ago
    Likewise in Hungary. When an opposition party leader (after a big election flop) suggested that instead of importing cultural issues from the US, opposition parties should concentrate on the problems of the people living here, it was almost treated as a heresy.
- throw0101c 4y ago
  > American politics has basically become common conversation in Australia in the last 6 years […] Noobs. We Canadians have been at it probably since before Confederation (1867). One reason is that it's probably good for ratings: drama, heroes, villains, etc. Who needs West Wing (or Veep) when you can watch the real thing instead?
G3rn0ti 4y ago
lumenwrites 4y ago
> American ideas and values are inconspicuously spread through memes (in the original sense of the term) and foreign children, teenagers and young adults are raised on them. Honestly, in the case of my country (and probably many others), this is a huge improvement. Thank god the internet and social media have exposed me to the American ideas and values as I was growing up. I don't agree with all of them, but living with my head filled with the culture and values of my own country would've been so much worse. All that stuff about "freedom" and "human rights" and "spreading democracy" may sound corny, unless you live in a place that doesn't have enough of those. Exporting its values is probably the best thing America could've done for my country. I could stand to hear less about American politics though) > Any nation that wants to retain control over their culture and values should have social media sovereignty. I'd rather control my own culture and values myself (by choosing what things to read and what websites to visit), than having someone else control them for me (which, in practice, just means censorship and/or propaganda).
- ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
  Freedom and human rights weren't invented and aren't exclusive to America, as for spreading democracy I find the track record more horrific than corny. You do not currently have control over your culture and values, you said yourself you're glad America exported its values to your country and exposed you to them. Good or bad, it should be clear you're not living in a vacuum with absolute control over what you see and believe. If you adopt a free-market attitude to these questions you will end up being controlled by whoever has the most money and the worst morals, companies and people who will prey on our worst instincts, algorithms which reward anger and division, which prey on addiction triggers and so on. The content you consume will be controlled to present you with ideas, news and perspectives that are politically and economically advantageous to their country, and often contrary to the best interests of your own. And to be clear there is no dichotomy between the status-quo and censorship. There is a million alternatives, the Digital Markets Act for example is a good start that should begin to break up social monopolies and companies which abuse network effects. Digital sovereignty just means you make available alternative tools to your population which are free of foreign influence.
SllX 4y ago
> social media sovereignty. There’s a bone-chilling phrase if ever there was one.
- ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
  Many find the alternative bone chilling: American sovereignty, or soon perhaps Chinese, an alternative I haven't seen much enthusiasm for on HN for some reason. Sovereignty doesn't need to mean government control, censorship, firewalls, nationally isolated networks. It can mean having alternative tools which are free of foreign influence. The implementation can take a million form, one might be the enforcement of open protocols and interoperability to counteract network effects. I believe in the free internet (however nebulous) as much as anyone who has seen its origins and works in software, but it's clear the internet is not free anymore, we are all centralized on closed and carefully curated American platforms.
  - SllX 4y ago
    Then I would advise looking for a different phrase because while I wanted to read it much like you were describing, there’s no way I can read “social media sovereignty” as anything other than “thought control”. Or: it reads like one of the worst aspects of American culture (from an American perspective): that human instinct to want to control how our neighbors think, live and breathe, and our incessant nagging about how other people in other parts of the State and Country are living wrong. Growing up here you’re immersed in it: farmers vs city dwellers, “right kind” of people rhetoric and other such nonsense I lost all patience for at a very early age because it’s all just provincialism and finding excuses to see the worst in people. This isn’t unique to America either. In my experience most places have some kind of dynamic like this because deep in our heart of hearts, we’re a xenophobic species and we need to keep the xenophobia in check. People who sound, think and act differently are much scarier to us than people who look different. Wanting to exercise “sovereignty” over someone else’s social media habits—the someone else being your fellow countrymen—just sounds like you want to control what your own people think and hear, basically the thing I’m criticizing Twitter and saying it’s probably best left as a smoking hole in the ground for. So please find a better phrasing, because you’re going to have to explain that one every time you drop it.
em-bee 4y ago
but it's not just control by the owners. also domination by the majority of users. the question is, how can you avoid that if you want a global conversation? hackernews is pretty US dominated to in userbase and selected topics. even without the influence of skewed moderation. and like australia, most of what's discussed on hackernews includes american politics. sometimes i feel pretty sheepish when i comment on some topic starting with "yes, but in europe..." fortunately hackernews readers are pretty open to other viewpoints, but still american values and ideas are quite strong.
throw0101c 4y ago
> This is digital imperialism, American ideas and values are inconspicuously spread through memes (in the original sense of the term) and foreign children, teenagers and young adults are raised on them. This has been going on since missionaries, perhaps going back to the original Apostles, started travelling the planet: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_Wor... * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25227902 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25227902 The fact that it is now American, as opposed to some European country, is just a recent phenomenon.
- TylerLives 4y ago
  Imo, the problem isn't that cultures influence other cultures, but the speed at which this now happens. I like many parts of American culture but I don't think that it should be the only culture. For a smaller group to develop and preserve its identity, it needs time and some amount of isolation. Not sure how this could happen in the modern world, but wouldn't it be great to be able to go somewhere and see people with different scientific ideas, art, technology, philosophy etc?
MomoXenosaga 4y ago
"Be careful or we end up like America" is something that comes up every time there is a discussion about healthcare. Honestly can't imagine anyone looks at the US and says that they want to emulate it.
- lakomen 4y ago
  [dead]
- aerostable_slug 4y ago
  This is weird, because when people have a chance to choose (and the funding) they regularly come here for care. Our healthcare may be skewed towards those who have the means to afford insurance (and this isn't quite true because emergent care must be treated), but it is the best in the world. We routinely do things that are science fiction in other countries with "enlightened" healthcare policies: deep brain stimulus implants, laser-etched re-mapping of nerve impulses across the heart (that bought my physician father a few extra years of life), CAT scans are routine, etc. Our physicians are also the best trained in the world. After having toured hospitals in the UK, only a fool or the near-indigent would rely on NHS in the UK — there's a reason why the Royals go to private clinics.
  - DanBC 4y ago
    > CAT scans are routine, etc That's a bug, not a feature. American doctors know that they order too many scans; they know it's harming their patients; but they can't stop doing it because there's a false belief that "more scans == better care". If you're in England and you need a cat scan you get a cat scan. They're not forbidden.
needle0 4y ago
Both the Japanese video sharing site Nico Nico Video (nicovideo.jp) and art commission site Skeb (skeb.jp) have regularly made statements about their intent of regulating their services based on Japanese law, and explicitly NOT what US-based tech companies impose on their services. Skeb is even in the process of launching its own cryptocurrency, intended for use in payment within the service, to avoid pressure from US-based credit card networks like Visa or MasterCard.
tomatotomato37 4y ago
It's funny you're talking about the spread of American/Western ideas specifically when talking about Japan; from my perspective Japan (along with South Korea & Taiwan) has been very successful at actually spreading its own culture through the West. 20 years ago the concept of sushi and boba tea shops on every street corner would have been foreign, but now we live in a period where even mainstream Netflix has a dedicated anime section.

peacefulhat 4y ago

Japan's fault for not making much of anything to replace 2channel.

ehnto 4y ago

American politics has basically become common conversation in Australia in the last 6 years, to the point where you often see people chatting as if it is their own politics. I wouldn't be surprised if some Aussies truly believe we have republicans and democrats here or even remotely the same policy landscape.

kkoncevicius 4y ago
Same in Lithuania. We even had a "Black Lives Matter" rally here, when things were happening in USA. Media reported on it, mostly Lithuanian teens showed up, some skipped school to attend. I don't think there was a single black person. They even had some signs against police brutality, when in Lithuania most of incidents happen not by police but to police.
- fabatka 4y ago
  Likewise in Hungary. When an opposition party leader (after a big election flop) suggested that instead of importing cultural issues from the US, opposition parties should concentrate on the problems of the people living here, it was almost treated as a heresy.
throw0101c 4y ago
> American politics has basically become common conversation in Australia in the last 6 years […] Noobs. We Canadians have been at it probably since before Confederation (1867). One reason is that it's probably good for ratings: drama, heroes, villains, etc. Who needs West Wing (or Veep) when you can watch the real thing instead?

G3rn0ti 4y ago

lumenwrites 4y ago

> American ideas and values are inconspicuously spread through memes (in the original sense of the term) and foreign children, teenagers and young adults are raised on them. Honestly, in the case of my country (and probably many others), this is a huge improvement. Thank god the internet and social media have exposed me to the American ideas and values as I was growing up. I don't agree with all of them, but living with my head filled with the culture and values of my own country would've been so much worse. All that stuff about "freedom" and "human rights" and "spreading democracy" may sound corny, unless you live in a place that doesn't have enough of those. Exporting its values is probably the best thing America could've done for my country. I could stand to hear less about American politics though) > Any nation that wants to retain control over their culture and values should have social media sovereignty. I'd rather control my own culture and values myself (by choosing what things to read and what websites to visit), than having someone else control them for me (which, in practice, just means censorship and/or propaganda).

ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
Freedom and human rights weren't invented and aren't exclusive to America, as for spreading democracy I find the track record more horrific than corny. You do not currently have control over your culture and values, you said yourself you're glad America exported its values to your country and exposed you to them. Good or bad, it should be clear you're not living in a vacuum with absolute control over what you see and believe. If you adopt a free-market attitude to these questions you will end up being controlled by whoever has the most money and the worst morals, companies and people who will prey on our worst instincts, algorithms which reward anger and division, which prey on addiction triggers and so on. The content you consume will be controlled to present you with ideas, news and perspectives that are politically and economically advantageous to their country, and often contrary to the best interests of your own. And to be clear there is no dichotomy between the status-quo and censorship. There is a million alternatives, the Digital Markets Act for example is a good start that should begin to break up social monopolies and companies which abuse network effects. Digital sovereignty just means you make available alternative tools to your population which are free of foreign influence.

SllX 4y ago

> social media sovereignty. There’s a bone-chilling phrase if ever there was one.

ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
Many find the alternative bone chilling: American sovereignty, or soon perhaps Chinese, an alternative I haven't seen much enthusiasm for on HN for some reason. Sovereignty doesn't need to mean government control, censorship, firewalls, nationally isolated networks. It can mean having alternative tools which are free of foreign influence. The implementation can take a million form, one might be the enforcement of open protocols and interoperability to counteract network effects. I believe in the free internet (however nebulous) as much as anyone who has seen its origins and works in software, but it's clear the internet is not free anymore, we are all centralized on closed and carefully curated American platforms.
- SllX 4y ago
  Then I would advise looking for a different phrase because while I wanted to read it much like you were describing, there’s no way I can read “social media sovereignty” as anything other than “thought control”. Or: it reads like one of the worst aspects of American culture (from an American perspective): that human instinct to want to control how our neighbors think, live and breathe, and our incessant nagging about how other people in other parts of the State and Country are living wrong. Growing up here you’re immersed in it: farmers vs city dwellers, “right kind” of people rhetoric and other such nonsense I lost all patience for at a very early age because it’s all just provincialism and finding excuses to see the worst in people. This isn’t unique to America either. In my experience most places have some kind of dynamic like this because deep in our heart of hearts, we’re a xenophobic species and we need to keep the xenophobia in check. People who sound, think and act differently are much scarier to us than people who look different. Wanting to exercise “sovereignty” over someone else’s social media habits—the someone else being your fellow countrymen—just sounds like you want to control what your own people think and hear, basically the thing I’m criticizing Twitter and saying it’s probably best left as a smoking hole in the ground for. So please find a better phrasing, because you’re going to have to explain that one every time you drop it.

em-bee 4y ago

but it's not just control by the owners. also domination by the majority of users. the question is, how can you avoid that if you want a global conversation? hackernews is pretty US dominated to in userbase and selected topics. even without the influence of skewed moderation. and like australia, most of what's discussed on hackernews includes american politics. sometimes i feel pretty sheepish when i comment on some topic starting with "yes, but in europe..." fortunately hackernews readers are pretty open to other viewpoints, but still american values and ideas are quite strong.

throw0101c 4y ago

> This is digital imperialism, American ideas and values are inconspicuously spread through memes (in the original sense of the term) and foreign children, teenagers and young adults are raised on them. This has been going on since missionaries, perhaps going back to the original Apostles, started travelling the planet: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_Wor... * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25227902 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25227902 The fact that it is now American, as opposed to some European country, is just a recent phenomenon.

TylerLives 4y ago
Imo, the problem isn't that cultures influence other cultures, but the speed at which this now happens. I like many parts of American culture but I don't think that it should be the only culture. For a smaller group to develop and preserve its identity, it needs time and some amount of isolation. Not sure how this could happen in the modern world, but wouldn't it be great to be able to go somewhere and see people with different scientific ideas, art, technology, philosophy etc?

MomoXenosaga 4y ago

"Be careful or we end up like America" is something that comes up every time there is a discussion about healthcare. Honestly can't imagine anyone looks at the US and says that they want to emulate it.

lakomen 4y ago
[dead]
aerostable_slug 4y ago
This is weird, because when people have a chance to choose (and the funding) they regularly come here for care. Our healthcare may be skewed towards those who have the means to afford insurance (and this isn't quite true because emergent care must be treated), but it is the best in the world. We routinely do things that are science fiction in other countries with "enlightened" healthcare policies: deep brain stimulus implants, laser-etched re-mapping of nerve impulses across the heart (that bought my physician father a few extra years of life), CAT scans are routine, etc. Our physicians are also the best trained in the world. After having toured hospitals in the UK, only a fool or the near-indigent would rely on NHS in the UK — there's a reason why the Royals go to private clinics.
- DanBC 4y ago
  > CAT scans are routine, etc That's a bug, not a feature. American doctors know that they order too many scans; they know it's harming their patients; but they can't stop doing it because there's a false belief that "more scans == better care". If you're in England and you need a cat scan you get a cat scan. They're not forbidden.

needle0 4y ago

Both the Japanese video sharing site Nico Nico Video (nicovideo.jp) and art commission site Skeb (skeb.jp) have regularly made statements about their intent of regulating their services based on Japanese law, and explicitly NOT what US-based tech companies impose on their services. Skeb is even in the process of launching its own cryptocurrency, intended for use in payment within the service, to avoid pressure from US-based credit card networks like Visa or MasterCard.

tomatotomato37 4y ago

It's funny you're talking about the spread of American/Western ideas specifically when talking about Japan; from my perspective Japan (along with South Korea & Taiwan) has been very successful at actually spreading its own culture through the West. 20 years ago the concept of sushi and boba tea shops on every street corner would have been foreign, but now we live in a period where even mainstream Netflix has a dedicated anime section.