7 ms·

>It's incredibly refreshing to know that the company providing my search results has an incentive to make things better for _me_ and not a legion of advertisers

by fardo 4y ago

>It's incredibly refreshing to know that the company providing my search results has an incentive to make things better for _me_ and not a legion of advertisers Cable television and netflix have made it quite clear that payment does not mean “no ads”, it just means “no ads, yet”. It still might be a better alternative in the short term, but the moment growth starts to peak, companies follow where the incentives lead them.

api 4y ago
Having the actual user pay is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a user centered product or service. It doesn’t guarantee the company won’t double dip but without a direct economic model nothing is even possible but ads and surveillance.
- toomanyusers 4y ago
  It strikes me that a company like Kagi should be able to craft a legally enforcable agreement with its customers which expressly forbids the company from selling ads and conducting surveillance. The agreement could be carefully written by a skilled lawyer to define the things Kagi cannot do, the proof customers must present in order to proceed with a valid lawsuit, and even the maximum damages that the customer may sue for. In that case, if Kagi was found at some point to be using customer data for these purposes, it could be sued very easily and by many parties. People are calling for regulation for data privacy. In the meantime, Kagi can create its own regulation it will hold itself to for the benefit of its users, can it not?
danuker 4y ago
Also smartphones and smart TVs.
- dehrmann 4y ago
  Even Amazon
andyfleming 4y ago
I'm a little tired of the rhetoric about Netflix adding ads. It's only on an entry-level account that is subsidized from the normal pricing (IIUC, correct me if I'm wrong). You could argue that they've artificially inflated the price of the normal plan or that it's a slippery slope, but it's not like they've forced ads on the existing plans. I think what's more interesting/concerning/insidious is hidden ad content like product placement. It's getting to the point where personalized product placement could be embedded in shows dynamically.
- falsenapkin 4y ago
  I would consider the Netflix UI to be ad laden for some years now with hundreds of originals shoved in your face in a non-customizable fashion and autoplaying etc. Also personalized thumbnails based on past watching behavior. You could argue that it's a good UX for most people, but for me it's always felt a bit more like user hostile marketing.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    Netflix doesn't have enough content, so they resort to these tactics. All major content providers left them years ago and started their own Netflixes. So they're left with a few movies from ten years ago, a couple of recent-ish releases, and their own content.
    - wardedVibe 4y ago
      really, content creators should be banned from creating markets like Netflix (and eventually the other way around), but that would require the regulation to not be asleep at the wheel.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        Are you really saying that creators shouldn’t be able to publish their own content on their own infrastructure?
acover 4y ago
Can you add a poison pill to a company where a select group of people can decide you broke one of your founding principles and hand the company over to someone else? No VC startup would do that but if possible would allow trust.
- tomcam 4y ago
  Sure you could. Of course no serious investor would make the acquisition.
mtsr 4y ago
I think it’s important to consider whether this happens with all companies, or whether venture capital seeking to maximize returns to the detriment of both the business and the user is a factor here.
- wardedVibe 4y ago
  If they plan to go public ever, its pretty much an inevitability, at least if US market incentives stay as they are. Cable isn't venture capital funded, and they're rife with profit maximization.
mrjin 4y ago
As long as there are good alternatives, it's fairly easy to switch, especially for something like search engine or streaming service.
HWR_14 4y ago
Netflix is still ad-free for me (product placements in content aside). Multiple tiers is reasonable.
scarface74 4y ago
Cable was never intended to be ad free. It was originally a method to rebroadcast over the air content from the broadcast stations in areas that couldn’t get a signal. You’re paying for the infrastructure to make that possible - not the content. Complaining that cable TV isn’t ad free because you pay for it is like saying all content over the internet isn’t Ad free because you pay for your internet connection.
ReptileMan 4y ago
Well ... I also made Netflix clear that my subscription means "no torrents, yet"
- ur-whale 4y ago
  Counter-powers is what makes the world go round.
D_Alex 4y ago
>Cable television and netflix have made it quite clear that payment does not mean “no ads”, it just means “no ads, yet”. 'It's better to be a millionaire hero than a billionaire asshole' (Ben Elton, Gridlock) Of course at $10/month even a 1% share of the search engine market would make the company worth billions.
- crocwrestler 4y ago
  Perhaps, but the millionaire hero will likely be outcompeted by the billionaire "asshole"
  - sph 4y ago
    If the only metric of success is yearly revenue, yes. If that is the only metric, the best business model is to extract as much money out of your user, while simultaneously offering less for the same amount of money, until you reach the asymptotic ideal of 100% profit. If you were to start a company, would you be willing to do that? Would you choose profit over everything else? Some would, but not everybody.
rrwo 4y ago
Yes, we can't emphasize this enough. Companies have an incentive to make money off of their customers' data, and technology just means that they can make money at every level (your ISP, your smart TV, the apps you use on it and the websites your browse). We're so accustomed to entities gathering data about us that it's become part of the background. Why is it the default that my home is on Google Maps/Google Earth? I should have to opt in, not opt out. Just because there is "public" information about me as a registered voter or home owner doesn't mean that anyone should be able get a copy of this data, put it online and connect it to other data?

by fardo 4y ago

api 4y ago

Having the actual user pay is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a user centered product or service. It doesn’t guarantee the company won’t double dip but without a direct economic model nothing is even possible but ads and surveillance.

toomanyusers 4y ago
It strikes me that a company like Kagi should be able to craft a legally enforcable agreement with its customers which expressly forbids the company from selling ads and conducting surveillance. The agreement could be carefully written by a skilled lawyer to define the things Kagi cannot do, the proof customers must present in order to proceed with a valid lawsuit, and even the maximum damages that the customer may sue for. In that case, if Kagi was found at some point to be using customer data for these purposes, it could be sued very easily and by many parties. People are calling for regulation for data privacy. In the meantime, Kagi can create its own regulation it will hold itself to for the benefit of its users, can it not?

danuker 4y ago

Also smartphones and smart TVs.

dehrmann 4y ago
Even Amazon

andyfleming 4y ago

I'm a little tired of the rhetoric about Netflix adding ads. It's only on an entry-level account that is subsidized from the normal pricing (IIUC, correct me if I'm wrong). You could argue that they've artificially inflated the price of the normal plan or that it's a slippery slope, but it's not like they've forced ads on the existing plans. I think what's more interesting/concerning/insidious is hidden ad content like product placement. It's getting to the point where personalized product placement could be embedded in shows dynamically.

falsenapkin 4y ago
I would consider the Netflix UI to be ad laden for some years now with hundreds of originals shoved in your face in a non-customizable fashion and autoplaying etc. Also personalized thumbnails based on past watching behavior. You could argue that it's a good UX for most people, but for me it's always felt a bit more like user hostile marketing.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  Netflix doesn't have enough content, so they resort to these tactics. All major content providers left them years ago and started their own Netflixes. So they're left with a few movies from ten years ago, a couple of recent-ish releases, and their own content.
  - wardedVibe 4y ago
    really, content creators should be banned from creating markets like Netflix (and eventually the other way around), but that would require the regulation to not be asleep at the wheel.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Are you really saying that creators shouldn’t be able to publish their own content on their own infrastructure?

acover 4y ago

Can you add a poison pill to a company where a select group of people can decide you broke one of your founding principles and hand the company over to someone else? No VC startup would do that but if possible would allow trust.

tomcam 4y ago
Sure you could. Of course no serious investor would make the acquisition.

mtsr 4y ago

I think it’s important to consider whether this happens with all companies, or whether venture capital seeking to maximize returns to the detriment of both the business and the user is a factor here.

wardedVibe 4y ago
If they plan to go public ever, its pretty much an inevitability, at least if US market incentives stay as they are. Cable isn't venture capital funded, and they're rife with profit maximization.

mrjin 4y ago

As long as there are good alternatives, it's fairly easy to switch, especially for something like search engine or streaming service.

HWR_14 4y ago

Netflix is still ad-free for me (product placements in content aside). Multiple tiers is reasonable.

scarface74 4y ago

Cable was never intended to be ad free. It was originally a method to rebroadcast over the air content from the broadcast stations in areas that couldn’t get a signal. You’re paying for the infrastructure to make that possible - not the content. Complaining that cable TV isn’t ad free because you pay for it is like saying all content over the internet isn’t Ad free because you pay for your internet connection.

ReptileMan 4y ago

Well ... I also made Netflix clear that my subscription means "no torrents, yet"

ur-whale 4y ago
Counter-powers is what makes the world go round.

D_Alex 4y ago

>Cable television and netflix have made it quite clear that payment does not mean “no ads”, it just means “no ads, yet”. 'It's better to be a millionaire hero than a billionaire asshole' (Ben Elton, Gridlock) Of course at $10/month even a 1% share of the search engine market would make the company worth billions.

crocwrestler 4y ago
Perhaps, but the millionaire hero will likely be outcompeted by the billionaire "asshole"
- sph 4y ago
  If the only metric of success is yearly revenue, yes. If that is the only metric, the best business model is to extract as much money out of your user, while simultaneously offering less for the same amount of money, until you reach the asymptotic ideal of 100% profit. If you were to start a company, would you be willing to do that? Would you choose profit over everything else? Some would, but not everybody.

rrwo 4y ago

Yes, we can't emphasize this enough. Companies have an incentive to make money off of their customers' data, and technology just means that they can make money at every level (your ISP, your smart TV, the apps you use on it and the websites your browse). We're so accustomed to entities gathering data about us that it's become part of the background. Why is it the default that my home is on Google Maps/Google Earth? I should have to opt in, not opt out. Just because there is "public" information about me as a registered voter or home owner doesn't mean that anyone should be able get a copy of this data, put it online and connect it to other data?