16 ms·

> concoct a plan to stage the product development and release such that it gets done and you don't cost a giant contract Yes, always showing up with a solution

> concoct a plan to stage the product development and release such that it gets done and you don't cost a giant contract Yes, always showing up with a solution to problems that you've surfaced is a good idea and good for your career, ... BUT: isn't coming up with a solution to this problem literally the job of the management team that they presented to? If management hears "the thing you think will happen will absolutely not happen" and then says "I wasn't handed an actionable plan by my subordinates so we'll just pretend I never heard all this", then they kind of suck. How well is an IC or lower level manager going to know what tradeoffs could be made without jeopardizing the contract or what kind of staging would be acceptable to the client? If your boss is ok with riding a project off a cliff when you've warned them then it's not your fault. That's when you either hang out, don't stress, and wait for it to explode, or you go find a new job.

recuter 4y ago
How do you reckon they (good ones) ended up in management? :)
sillysaurusx 4y ago
Suppose you were a junior engineer working with a senior engineer. They gave you a task, and you came to a similar conclusion: it was their job to do X, but they weren't doing it. Would you simply tell them they're not doing their job, or would you ask questions, talk in private, and try to dig in tactfully? When I was 22 or so, I did go around telling a certain senior engineer that they weren't doing their job. I still cringe at how headstrong I was back then. The people around me were trying to hint that things aren't quite as clear cut as it seems, but it took a swift kick in my backside to reboot my worldview. You're right that the optimal strategy is not to stress about it, though. That would've saved me a lot of heartache. My point is (and the point of many other commenters here) is that you can't really show up to a meeting and say "This project is doomed." That's arguably one of the core advantages of startups over bigcos -- you can pivot. Your options are to climb the politics ladder, or ride it out and see what happens. It depends how much you care, or how much responsibility you want.
- tdeck 4y ago
  > Would you simply tell them they're not doing their job, or would you ask questions, talk in private, and try to dig in tactfully? Telling a manager "we uncovered work that wasn't in the original spec" isn't literally the same thing as telling them they aren't doing their job.
  - sillysaurusx 4y ago
    I think the confusion is, if their job is to execute a $60M contract successfully, and you tell them that it’s going to require an extra 12 months, you’re almost literally telling them they aren’t doing their job. Because arguably they weren’t. Their job was to guide the project successfully, which they didn’t do. In a situation like that, you can recover, but it requires tact. The end of this story was that they left the company. An alternate ending is that they may have been let go. If they’re paying you to work on a doomed project, you have to work on it, or change it. And if you want to change it, political maneuvering is necessary.
    - marvin 4y ago
      Well, yeeeeees... If management, whose job it is to swallow their pride when given a nasty surprise like this, isn't up to the task. I'm sure that OP could, with great political skill and subtlety, have had a very decent shot at turning this thing around. But what's their incentive? They're probably paid as a regular IC, and saving a double-digit million dollar fiasco like this from disaster is super annoying and unrewarding work! You're effectively doing the job of five managers and not even getting their salary -- let alone a percentage of the disaster you're averting! This kind of political-technical skill combination can probably be fruitfully applied in a place that properly rewards the contributor! I very much agree that this thing could have been handled better, when seen externally. But I'm also pretty sure it wasn't in OP's personal interest to do so! That's a very stupid state of affairs, of course, but I guess that might be par for the course of a failed $60 million project.
    - quadcore 4y ago
      In a situation like that, you can recover, but it requires tact. I'd bet it doesnt requires tact to convince them anymore.
cryptonector 4y ago
It doesn't matter whose responsibility coming up with a solution is. If it isn't you but you have one and they don't, then go ahead and step on their toes -- be diplomatic and kind, but go ahead, because a) you'll be saving the firm's bacon, b) you'll be saving the customer's too, c) you'll be making your career. In TFA's case I suspect there really was no solution short of sinking a pile more cash into the project, and that was probably not an option. Though, who besides TFA knows, TFA gave us too little detail to be able to tell.
- BWStearns 4y ago
  Oh for sure if you have a solution then get it in front of a person who should care about it. But a lot of times they _don't_ care because they know they're going to be promoted or leave the company before the pound of flesh is due. The problem described in TFA is that leadership was happy to ignore a problem rather than do anything. In that kind of culture you don't make your career by raising attention to issues (even with solutions, because remember, they don't really care), you get sidelined. In that kind of culture it's better to just compliment the emperor on his new duds.
  - cryptonector 4y ago
    I assume the leadership structure and culture just didn't lend itself well to handling crises discovered in the trenches. But also, the crisis in TFA seems like a complete failure to properly understand the problem and solution spaces from the get-go, and that can just be very difficult even on good organizations.
    - bernardonw 4y ago

recuter 4y ago

How do you reckon they (good ones) ended up in management? :)

sillysaurusx 4y ago

Suppose you were a junior engineer working with a senior engineer. They gave you a task, and you came to a similar conclusion: it was their job to do X, but they weren't doing it. Would you simply tell them they're not doing their job, or would you ask questions, talk in private, and try to dig in tactfully? When I was 22 or so, I did go around telling a certain senior engineer that they weren't doing their job. I still cringe at how headstrong I was back then. The people around me were trying to hint that things aren't quite as clear cut as it seems, but it took a swift kick in my backside to reboot my worldview. You're right that the optimal strategy is not to stress about it, though. That would've saved me a lot of heartache. My point is (and the point of many other commenters here) is that you can't really show up to a meeting and say "This project is doomed." That's arguably one of the core advantages of startups over bigcos -- you can pivot. Your options are to climb the politics ladder, or ride it out and see what happens. It depends how much you care, or how much responsibility you want.

tdeck 4y ago
> Would you simply tell them they're not doing their job, or would you ask questions, talk in private, and try to dig in tactfully? Telling a manager "we uncovered work that wasn't in the original spec" isn't literally the same thing as telling them they aren't doing their job.
- sillysaurusx 4y ago
  I think the confusion is, if their job is to execute a $60M contract successfully, and you tell them that it’s going to require an extra 12 months, you’re almost literally telling them they aren’t doing their job. Because arguably they weren’t. Their job was to guide the project successfully, which they didn’t do. In a situation like that, you can recover, but it requires tact. The end of this story was that they left the company. An alternate ending is that they may have been let go. If they’re paying you to work on a doomed project, you have to work on it, or change it. And if you want to change it, political maneuvering is necessary.
  - marvin 4y ago
    Well, yeeeeees... If management, whose job it is to swallow their pride when given a nasty surprise like this, isn't up to the task. I'm sure that OP could, with great political skill and subtlety, have had a very decent shot at turning this thing around. But what's their incentive? They're probably paid as a regular IC, and saving a double-digit million dollar fiasco like this from disaster is super annoying and unrewarding work! You're effectively doing the job of five managers and not even getting their salary -- let alone a percentage of the disaster you're averting! This kind of political-technical skill combination can probably be fruitfully applied in a place that properly rewards the contributor! I very much agree that this thing could have been handled better, when seen externally. But I'm also pretty sure it wasn't in OP's personal interest to do so! That's a very stupid state of affairs, of course, but I guess that might be par for the course of a failed $60 million project.
  - quadcore 4y ago
    In a situation like that, you can recover, but it requires tact. I'd bet it doesnt requires tact to convince them anymore.

cryptonector 4y ago

It doesn't matter whose responsibility coming up with a solution is. If it isn't you but you have one and they don't, then go ahead and step on their toes -- be diplomatic and kind, but go ahead, because a) you'll be saving the firm's bacon, b) you'll be saving the customer's too, c) you'll be making your career. In TFA's case I suspect there really was no solution short of sinking a pile more cash into the project, and that was probably not an option. Though, who besides TFA knows, TFA gave us too little detail to be able to tell.

BWStearns 4y ago
Oh for sure if you have a solution then get it in front of a person who should care about it. But a lot of times they _don't_ care because they know they're going to be promoted or leave the company before the pound of flesh is due. The problem described in TFA is that leadership was happy to ignore a problem rather than do anything. In that kind of culture you don't make your career by raising attention to issues (even with solutions, because remember, they don't really care), you get sidelined. In that kind of culture it's better to just compliment the emperor on his new duds.
- cryptonector 4y ago
  I assume the leadership structure and culture just didn't lend itself well to handling crises discovered in the trenches. But also, the crisis in TFA seems like a complete failure to properly understand the problem and solution spaces from the get-go, and that can just be very difficult even on good organizations.
  - bernardonw 4y ago