17 ms·

Dragon’s teeth – Stopping tanks in their tracks

178 points by Kaibeezy 4y ago

elif 4y ago
I am not a tank expert, but if I had a tank battalion, I would try shooting these things with the massive array of cannons.
tenebrisalietum 4y ago
Also Czech hedgehogs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_hedgehog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_hedgehog
- smcl 4y ago
  I saw these in a forest in jižní čechy near the Austrian border, they preserved some of the old border defenses. I thought “oh it’s like the anti-tank things from Normandy” - had no idea it was originally Czech
putsjoe 4y ago
Off topic but I find it funny when a site shows a popup to sign up for the newsletter as soon as you get on the site but then has no newsletter sign-up at the end of the article.
malfist 4y ago
Interestingly this is a very effective defensive tactic for factorio. Offsetting bollards channels enemies through choke points that leave them vulnerable and predictable, as well as slowing them down.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
superkuh 4y ago
It's funny how they seem to understand how to display one photo at the top as html but then all the other photos don't display unless you execute their javascript. I call this a browser trap. This URL should probably be changed to something that actually has content like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_teeth_%28fortification%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_teeth_%28fortificat...
- lucideer 4y ago
  > I call this a browser trap Fwiw the idea here is bandwidth-minimisation. I.e.: you only incur the image download cost if you choose to scroll. It's common practice on a lot of article/blog/content websites. That said it's possible to implement this in a "graceful" way (where the mechanism only kicks in if JS is enabled & JS-less users just download all images at once), but this best practice is sadly rarely followed as it is admittedly somewhat more complex to implement.
  - TonyTrapp 4y ago
    In fact, it's super-easy to implement these days: Add loading="lazy" to the img tag and let the browser do the magic.
  - dspillett 4y ago
    > (where the mechanism only kicks in if JS is enabled & JS-less users just download all images at once) This can fail and increase the bandwidth used if you only have a couple of images or have users on very fast connections. I've seen it done by sending the image tag, and at the end of the document scanning the DOM for marked image tags and changing the URL specified to a low-quality copy (much smaller data size but looks a little like the image) or a small place-holder (perhaps even a data:url image) with the original getting put back when the image is visible (or about to be). The issue being that with a small number of images or a fast connected user the main large files start loading before the HREF attribute is updated and the transfer is not aborted when it is changed so the user always loads both the main and place-holder image. You can improve this plan a little by emitting the JS to alter each relevant image tag immediately after it, but that can cause multiple-reflow/-repaint issues. > admittedly somewhat more complex to implement Aye, and sometimes it is simply worth losing a few viewers to save a bit of faf. Though care should be taken with regard to collateral damage: as with all methods that exclude people who have chosen to have JS turned off this can easily exclude those with accessibility issues which is far less acceptable. > where the mechanism only kicks in if JS is enabled Of course there is now a commonly available method of doing lazy loading built-in so that is the best way to go, for those few with an ancient or otherwise alternative browser that doesn't support the feature yet the images just load immediately: https://caniuse.com/loading-lazy-attr https://caniuse.com/loading-lazy-attr. You can augment this is JS for those that have it turned on if you wish, perhaps on long documents implementing early-lazy loading (start the load when the user scrolls to within on display-window of content rather than when first visible) by removing the lazy attribute at an appropriate time detected using the same methods as you do for entirely manual lazy loading support, or using the replace-with-low-res-copy method in place of attribute based lazy-loading when JS is available.
chrisseaton 4y ago
Difficult to see where tanks go forward from today. Still defeated by these basic WW2 obstacles, and currently completely overmatched by anti-tank weapons. The best chance of active protection systems from here rely on always-on active radar which means you're lighting yourself up.
- dr-detroit 4y ago
- Kaibeezy 4y ago
  The only defense I could find was to plow soil up onto them. Still a slowdown and vulnerability.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    You always try to cover an obstacle with fire, so the idea is while they're milling around slowly piling up soil they're vulnerable to fire. You can see in some of the photos the troops looking down on the obstacle from I presume potential fire positions.
    - mellavora 4y ago
      > You always try to cover an obstacle with fire, I misread your comment to mean flames/burning stuff (not weapons fire), and wanted to pause for a moment to admire your approach to life. :)
- jcranmer 4y ago
  Difficult to see where infantry can still be useful. Still defeated by basic Napoleonic-era weapons, and completely overmatched by... almost everything. Yet no one seriously proposes to eliminate infantry battalions, whereas people constantly do the same for things like tanks and aircraft carriers. Weapon systems are not obsolete just because they can be defeated--warfare is not a case where one weapon system just totally creams everything else, but closer to a rock-paper-scissors scenario where nothing is truly dominant. Tanks are not useless because they are easily defeated in some scenarios, but rather, tanks are useful as "part of the complete package". For example, tanks proved to be a critical component to the successful Ukrainian operation that led to the Russian rout in Kherson Oblast a few months ago.
spyremeown 4y ago
I live in Aachen, Germany, and there are a bunch of these near the tri-border with the Netherlands and Belgium. I think most people don't even know what they are, and some of them are so covered with dirt and vegetation only a keen eye can spot them. Still a very nice piece of history.
- pfdietz 4y ago
  As I'm sure you know, there was a lot of fighting around there in October 1944. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aachen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aachen
  - spyremeown 4y ago
    Yes, I tend to search for bullet holes around the city a lot, which is a weird thing to do now that I said something about it. If you go town through Krefelderstraße there is a bunch of them on the buildings. The cathedral has some places with grenade shrapnel as well. Some iron gates around the city have little indents from bullets as well. There are a bunch of tanks abandoned in one of the forests to the south, near Brand. Some streets have "gaps" where houses were never reconstructed. 70 something years later and the destruction is still very much visible.
    - pfdietz 4y ago
      I believe those tanks are from the 1950s, surplus US tanks used as training targets instead of being scrapped. https://jessicalynnwrites.com/2021/03/see-tanks-in-germany-at-brander-wald/ https://jessicalynnwrites.com/2021/03/see-tanks-in-germany-a...
- exar0815 4y ago
  Was immediately thinking about those, passing them every morning on my way to work, as they weren't removed except where the road is!
inasio 4y ago
Reminds me of my Starcraft strategy (definitely not competitive, playing vs the computer) to build tons of supply depots as dragon teeth, worked also because advancing hordes would not only open a path, but want to destroy them all, leaving them vulnerable
- LordHeini 4y ago
  That is used in competitive as well (usually a single depot or turrets) to mess up the path finding. Or as sim city where the whole base is designed to block paths or mess up the ai so that it funnels trough choke points. Destroying buildings takes a lot of shots so it is often very hard to push those structures. Since the damage is not used on the more dangerous units. Actually that is quite similar to the real thing because obstacles like dragon teeth need active protection from troops behind as well. Otherwise it is quite easy to move some engineers up end place some explosives or dig dirt over them.
  - gigaflop 4y ago
    SC2 for context: From watching pros play, an early wall-off can be vital. At their level of play, slipping in 1 to 3 combat units can have devastating early effect. Terrans can easily solve this by including a supply depot in their wall, which can be raised or lowered at the push of a button. Or a building that can lift off and reposition. Another take: Especially in a Terran vs Zerg game, the Zerg's creep kind of acts like an inverse blockade. Since Zerg units move faster on it, and the Zerg player will have vision of what's on the Creep, the Terran will often prefer to slow-crawl their siege tanks and etc closer, and be forced to use resources to clear out the Creep before moving too far in. Stronger Terran players can often be proactive about pushing back Creep, and have an easier time applying pressure. For those who don't know, Creep is a purple-ish goop that covers the map terrain (requires active effort to propagate), and Zerg are bug-looking alien things that grow out of eggs. Terrans are the humans.
- piva00 4y ago
  I played competitive SC:BW and WC3 and when thinking about building placement and base design you always take in consideration paths of invasion to block weak points, e.g.: access to your workers gathering resources should be blocked as much as possible; create choke points inside the base to use as killing zones; use choke points to break enemy units' path finding; block off ramps with supply buildings to block vision and place a turret with range on the border of the killing zone on the ramp; keep a turret to defend against air drops or flying units coming for your workers.
jollyllama 4y ago
"Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man." - George S. Patton
- rjsw 4y ago
  The one at Metz managed to stop him.
- melling 4y ago
  I was just trying to find that line from the movie. My Google skills failed me.
- nimbius 4y ago
  Give me 25lbs of easy mix Dexpan and a hammer drill, and ill show you a gravel pit in about three hours.
  - piva00 4y ago
    You forgot the 3 hours of complete ceasefire you will require.
  - MagnumOpus 4y ago
    Three hours are a very long time when pounded with artillery or raked with automatic arms...
  - arethuza 4y ago
    Didn't someone make a similar comment about Cheyenne Mountain and SS-18s with 25Mt warheads?
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    You're going to survive three hours of pre-targeted direct or indirect fire?
  - ISL 4y ago
    TIL about Dexpan. Clever idea. Also, as sibling says, good luck hammer-drilling under fire.
arethuza 4y ago
Ancient hill-forts in the UK often have cheval de frise which are pretty similar in concept e.g. https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3966108 https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3966108
saiya-jin 4y ago
Swiss have their own version in the western part, called now Toblerone line, built after WWI. Now a tourist attraction with hike paths around them, each block weighting 9 tons (and it runs 10km straight up to Jura mountains), the line basically cutting off westernmost part of country (basically Geneva) off the rest. They don't treat it as something ancient though, there is also modern part of it integrated into road [1], but nothing I could notice on highway though. Bear in mind this would protect Switzerland from an attack from France, which these days seems... unprobable. [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Toblerone_Line_road_3.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Toblerone_Line_road_...
i_am_proteus 4y ago
Should you have a forest handy, abatis will also serve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abatis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abatis
thehills 4y ago
All that time and energy and a lump of concrete is enough to hold up 60 tons of mental.
- Tuna-Fish 4y ago
  Dragon teeth alone won't hold against a tank for more than a few minutes, if the tank just has a bulldozer attachment. Not for bulldozing the teeth, but for pushing enough soil over them so it can effortlessly go over. The purpose is to force enemy to spend time and effort dealing with the obstacle, while you direct fire on them.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    A tank battalion is going to have N engineering and M recon units attached (values of M and N and specific makeup of said units varies by country and service). The point of "inconveniences" like barriers is to a) make the enemy throw an engineering unit at them thereby tipping you off to a probable attack buying you time to mass force there b) just choose to attack somewhere else that is more conveniently defensible for you or where you already have more manpower.
  - hadlock 4y ago
    The neat thing about earth moving devices is that they converge at a time and place in a manner in which artillery and nearly any other conceivable weapon can hit them very reliably
  - nomel 4y ago
    > Dragon teeth alone won't hold against a tank for more than a few minutes This doesn't seem accurate. While searching for a video that shows a tank trying to go over (unsuccessful), I found a video showing three ways to get over them, and only the explosives would take a few minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRld768HDyc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRld768HDyc Anchored concrete blocks can be made more difficult to move than the dirt under the tracks.
- Someone 4y ago
  Hundreds of lumps of concrete. A tank will go around a single one in seconds.
323 4y ago
The ones which Russia is now deploying in Ukraine don't appear to be anchored in the ground, just laid on top of it - you can just push them away with a bulldozer or a group of people.
- dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
  Or drag them out of the way with... a tank.
  - 6stringmerc 4y ago
    Something something OSS 'easy field sabotage manual' and "Screw this I didn't want to be here in the first place" fatigue...
  - ASalazarMX 4y ago
    I was wondering if firing at the teeth would be a good tactic. Even a space one tank wide would make a big difference.
    - Moru 4y ago
      If you know the exact location a tank will be in at a certain time, the term "sitting duck" comes to mind. There is nothing effektive to stop a human that wants to get from point A to point B. Except for another human.
- kazinator 4y ago
  But imagine there were other obstacles interspersed among them: barbed wire, landmines. The Wikipedia article mentions tactics like that.
- tedmcory77 4y ago
  Former infantry here - One of the things that was drilled into my head, obstacles should always be covered by fire to deter these sorts of things. If you can't cover it by fire, then maybe it's not worth putting on obstacle on.
peterclary 4y ago
There are Dragon's Teeth on the banks of the River Wey behind Waverley Abbey in Surrey, England. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dragon%27s_Teeth,_Waverley_Abbey_01.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dragon%27s_Teeth,_Wa...
- onion2k 4y ago
  That must be why you never see tanks around there.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Lisa, I'd like to buy your Tiger[1] stopping rock. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I
  - lapetitejort 4y ago
    I've noticed there aren't a ton of tanks in my area and I'm wondering if there's some dragon's teeth buried in my lawn somewhere. Might do some random digging to find out.
  - Borrible 4y ago
    But, where is the dragon?
- xnorswap 4y ago
  And down the road in Guildford: https://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/through-the-dragons-teeth-a-remarkable-set-of-second-world-war-defences-in-guildford/ https://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/through-the-dragons-...
  - arethuza 4y ago
    Remnants of the defensive lines from WW2? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GHQ_Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GHQ_Line
worstenbrood 4y ago
Dont forget https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankgracht https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankgracht
dadarourou 4y ago
In Switzerland, we call them Toblerones, because they have the same shape as the chocolates.
- mauvehaus 4y ago
  Are the tank traps also getting smaller as the result of shrinkflation? The 200g to 170g change in Toblerone bars is the first example in the Wikipedia article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrinkflation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrinkflation
  - daedrdev 4y ago
    That idea is more credible than you might think, videos of Russian Dragon Teeth show smaller spikes more spread apart without a base slab.
  - layer8 4y ago
    It would make a lot of sense if the tanks shrinkflate as well.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - lmm 4y ago
    Yep: https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/yajyi7/babe_wake_up_maginot_line_20_just_dropped/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/yajyi7/...
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
Curious from someone with more knowledge. Given some of the results from the war in Ukraine, what's the latest viewpoint on tanks in modern warfare? All I can say is I would rather be an infantryman than a tank operator. Seems way too easy to be a sitting duck given the effectiveness of anti-tank missiles. Honestly I don't really understand the need for manned tanks in any case. Why couldn't they just be operated remotely, and then put your actual soldiers in more nimble forms of transport?
- adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
  machine guns are very effective against infantry. tanks are vulnerable but they can fight back effectively, and being able to go 40mph and be protected from small and medium calibers makes taking ground a lot easier.
- Fomite 4y ago
  From a former tanker I know: This has proved that poorly driven and commanded tanks are vulnerable. The Russians are really bad at doing the things necessary to protect themselves. They're all buttoned up. There are a ton of pictures where they're essentially ambushed while in parade formation, rather than how you'd be on a road in a hostile area.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lawn 4y ago
  As an aside, it's been interesting to see the impact drones has had in the war. Reconnaissance, blowing up non-tank vehicles, bombing trenches and suicide bombers. Maybe tanks will still have a place in warfare, but I doubt they'll be as ubiquitous as before?
- scottLobster 4y ago
  Against an enemy with signal jamming capability remote operation is not a given. Plus tanks communicate in real time with infantry/other elements. The lag introduced by remote operation/communication would be a serious hindrance even if everything was working, which it often isn't. Tanks have to respond in real time, they don't have the luxury of seconds of delay like say an orbiting drone. There's also the case of not wanting disabled tanks to fall into the hands of the enemy. Short of rigging the tanks with a self-destruct system (which would likely just make them explode more easily when hit), you need soldiers to do that. Keep in mind that anything operating in battlefield conditions must be resilient. The entire situation is a constant stream of edge cases. Also, don't look to Russia in Ukraine for an example of how tanks are used. Tanks are generally not meant to act alone. Either they're operating with a lot of other tanks, substantial supporting infantry, or both. There are tons of other reasons as well, The Chieften, a former Tanker, has a good video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI7T650RTT8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI7T650RTT8
layer8 4y ago
I suddenly feel the urge to spread a crackpot theory that the pyramids of Giza are really the remnants of a range of dragon’s teeth protecting against giant forgotten-ancient-civilization tanks.
- akiselev 4y ago
  I believe Dr Daniel Jackson proved conclusively that they were used as landing platform for Ha’tak class capital ships.
  - layer8 4y ago
    The one doesn't exclude the other.
_nalply 4y ago
The top image is in Wimmis in Switzerland at the bottom of the Niesen mountain. The mountain resembles a giant pyramid. That's nice: many small pyramids and a giant one. You see the mountain starting to rise in the background of the photo. There is a narrow side valley (Spissi) leading to Western Bernese Oberland and from there you can reach Valais and the Leman basin. Above Wimmis there is a small steep limestone hill (Burgflue) and inside it there is a military bunker with holes to shoot out of. https://s.geo.admin.ch/9b8456f6ad https://s.geo.admin.ch/9b8456f6ad (a topographic map) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niesen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niesen I live not far away therefore I immediately knew it. I verified it with a reverse image search. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Panzersperre_in_Wimmis_01.JPG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Panzersperre_in_Wimm...
foobarian 4y ago
While on the topic of ways to stop tanks, there is also the "hedgehog," or the "Czech hedgehog [1]." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_hedgehog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_hedgehog
bamboozled 4y ago
As with any fortification, they are not indestructible. A well prepared force can employ engineers to destroy the blocks with relative ease and create paths through the dragon’s teeth. This occurred on many occasions during WWII. So not really that good at stopping tanks?
canadianfella 4y ago
rkagerer 4y ago
Anyone have a photo of a tank stuck on these?
tristanb 4y ago
A tank has a giant gun on it. Can't you just blow up a big chunk and drive on through?
- int_19h 4y ago
  These things are basically huge lumps of solid concrete. You can blow them up, but a blast strong enough to reduce them to rubble requires way more explosives than a single tank shell can pack. Combat engineers can do it better and faster.
  - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
    > Combat engineers can do it better and faster. Plus, let's be honest...they really love blowing things up.
toddmorey 4y ago
This website is like dragon’s teeth for visitors, at least on mobile.
- alias_neo 4y ago
  How so? Aside from the images being too small and none of the videos playing, the text was readable and layed out properly for mobile.
usefulcat 4y ago
Been playing Total Annihilation for ~25 years and TIL where the name “dragons teeth” comes from.
- avereveard 4y ago
  Thought all player had been on zero-k in the last decade
Jeff_Brown 4y ago
Let's send mud catapults to Ukraine.
mbank 4y ago
What a lot of people don't know: the standard NATO barbedwire - correctly deployed - is highly effective against tanks: It messes up the chains and is a nightmare to remove (eg blowing them up is not an option).
gloosx 4y ago
Why tank can't simple shoot these with an onboard cannon, assuming they got clearance to move freely in this area, they can just lay one or two good shots and go thru

178 points by Kaibeezy 4y ago

elif 4y ago

I am not a tank expert, but if I had a tank battalion, I would try shooting these things with the massive array of cannons.

tenebrisalietum 4y ago

Also Czech hedgehogs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_hedgehog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_hedgehog

smcl 4y ago
I saw these in a forest in jižní čechy near the Austrian border, they preserved some of the old border defenses. I thought “oh it’s like the anti-tank things from Normandy” - had no idea it was originally Czech

putsjoe 4y ago

Off topic but I find it funny when a site shows a popup to sign up for the newsletter as soon as you get on the site but then has no newsletter sign-up at the end of the article.

malfist 4y ago

Interestingly this is a very effective defensive tactic for factorio. Offsetting bollards channels enemies through choke points that leave them vulnerable and predictable, as well as slowing them down.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

superkuh 4y ago

It's funny how they seem to understand how to display one photo at the top as html but then all the other photos don't display unless you execute their javascript. I call this a browser trap. This URL should probably be changed to something that actually has content like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_teeth_%28fortification%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_teeth_%28fortificat...

lucideer 4y ago
> I call this a browser trap Fwiw the idea here is bandwidth-minimisation. I.e.: you only incur the image download cost if you choose to scroll. It's common practice on a lot of article/blog/content websites. That said it's possible to implement this in a "graceful" way (where the mechanism only kicks in if JS is enabled & JS-less users just download all images at once), but this best practice is sadly rarely followed as it is admittedly somewhat more complex to implement.
- TonyTrapp 4y ago
  In fact, it's super-easy to implement these days: Add loading="lazy" to the img tag and let the browser do the magic.
- dspillett 4y ago
  > (where the mechanism only kicks in if JS is enabled & JS-less users just download all images at once) This can fail and increase the bandwidth used if you only have a couple of images or have users on very fast connections. I've seen it done by sending the image tag, and at the end of the document scanning the DOM for marked image tags and changing the URL specified to a low-quality copy (much smaller data size but looks a little like the image) or a small place-holder (perhaps even a data:url image) with the original getting put back when the image is visible (or about to be). The issue being that with a small number of images or a fast connected user the main large files start loading before the HREF attribute is updated and the transfer is not aborted when it is changed so the user always loads both the main and place-holder image. You can improve this plan a little by emitting the JS to alter each relevant image tag immediately after it, but that can cause multiple-reflow/-repaint issues. > admittedly somewhat more complex to implement Aye, and sometimes it is simply worth losing a few viewers to save a bit of faf. Though care should be taken with regard to collateral damage: as with all methods that exclude people who have chosen to have JS turned off this can easily exclude those with accessibility issues which is far less acceptable. > where the mechanism only kicks in if JS is enabled Of course there is now a commonly available method of doing lazy loading built-in so that is the best way to go, for those few with an ancient or otherwise alternative browser that doesn't support the feature yet the images just load immediately: https://caniuse.com/loading-lazy-attr https://caniuse.com/loading-lazy-attr. You can augment this is JS for those that have it turned on if you wish, perhaps on long documents implementing early-lazy loading (start the load when the user scrolls to within on display-window of content rather than when first visible) by removing the lazy attribute at an appropriate time detected using the same methods as you do for entirely manual lazy loading support, or using the replace-with-low-res-copy method in place of attribute based lazy-loading when JS is available.

chrisseaton 4y ago

Difficult to see where tanks go forward from today. Still defeated by these basic WW2 obstacles, and currently completely overmatched by anti-tank weapons. The best chance of active protection systems from here rely on always-on active radar which means you're lighting yourself up.

dr-detroit 4y ago
Kaibeezy 4y ago
The only defense I could find was to plow soil up onto them. Still a slowdown and vulnerability.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  You always try to cover an obstacle with fire, so the idea is while they're milling around slowly piling up soil they're vulnerable to fire. You can see in some of the photos the troops looking down on the obstacle from I presume potential fire positions.
  - mellavora 4y ago
    > You always try to cover an obstacle with fire, I misread your comment to mean flames/burning stuff (not weapons fire), and wanted to pause for a moment to admire your approach to life. :)
jcranmer 4y ago
Difficult to see where infantry can still be useful. Still defeated by basic Napoleonic-era weapons, and completely overmatched by... almost everything. Yet no one seriously proposes to eliminate infantry battalions, whereas people constantly do the same for things like tanks and aircraft carriers. Weapon systems are not obsolete just because they can be defeated--warfare is not a case where one weapon system just totally creams everything else, but closer to a rock-paper-scissors scenario where nothing is truly dominant. Tanks are not useless because they are easily defeated in some scenarios, but rather, tanks are useful as "part of the complete package". For example, tanks proved to be a critical component to the successful Ukrainian operation that led to the Russian rout in Kherson Oblast a few months ago.

spyremeown 4y ago

I live in Aachen, Germany, and there are a bunch of these near the tri-border with the Netherlands and Belgium. I think most people don't even know what they are, and some of them are so covered with dirt and vegetation only a keen eye can spot them. Still a very nice piece of history.

pfdietz 4y ago
As I'm sure you know, there was a lot of fighting around there in October 1944. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aachen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aachen
- spyremeown 4y ago
  Yes, I tend to search for bullet holes around the city a lot, which is a weird thing to do now that I said something about it. If you go town through Krefelderstraße there is a bunch of them on the buildings. The cathedral has some places with grenade shrapnel as well. Some iron gates around the city have little indents from bullets as well. There are a bunch of tanks abandoned in one of the forests to the south, near Brand. Some streets have "gaps" where houses were never reconstructed. 70 something years later and the destruction is still very much visible.
  - pfdietz 4y ago
    I believe those tanks are from the 1950s, surplus US tanks used as training targets instead of being scrapped. https://jessicalynnwrites.com/2021/03/see-tanks-in-germany-at-brander-wald/ https://jessicalynnwrites.com/2021/03/see-tanks-in-germany-a...
exar0815 4y ago
Was immediately thinking about those, passing them every morning on my way to work, as they weren't removed except where the road is!

inasio 4y ago

Reminds me of my Starcraft strategy (definitely not competitive, playing vs the computer) to build tons of supply depots as dragon teeth, worked also because advancing hordes would not only open a path, but want to destroy them all, leaving them vulnerable

LordHeini 4y ago
That is used in competitive as well (usually a single depot or turrets) to mess up the path finding. Or as sim city where the whole base is designed to block paths or mess up the ai so that it funnels trough choke points. Destroying buildings takes a lot of shots so it is often very hard to push those structures. Since the damage is not used on the more dangerous units. Actually that is quite similar to the real thing because obstacles like dragon teeth need active protection from troops behind as well. Otherwise it is quite easy to move some engineers up end place some explosives or dig dirt over them.
- gigaflop 4y ago
  SC2 for context: From watching pros play, an early wall-off can be vital. At their level of play, slipping in 1 to 3 combat units can have devastating early effect. Terrans can easily solve this by including a supply depot in their wall, which can be raised or lowered at the push of a button. Or a building that can lift off and reposition. Another take: Especially in a Terran vs Zerg game, the Zerg's creep kind of acts like an inverse blockade. Since Zerg units move faster on it, and the Zerg player will have vision of what's on the Creep, the Terran will often prefer to slow-crawl their siege tanks and etc closer, and be forced to use resources to clear out the Creep before moving too far in. Stronger Terran players can often be proactive about pushing back Creep, and have an easier time applying pressure. For those who don't know, Creep is a purple-ish goop that covers the map terrain (requires active effort to propagate), and Zerg are bug-looking alien things that grow out of eggs. Terrans are the humans.
piva00 4y ago
I played competitive SC:BW and WC3 and when thinking about building placement and base design you always take in consideration paths of invasion to block weak points, e.g.: access to your workers gathering resources should be blocked as much as possible; create choke points inside the base to use as killing zones; use choke points to break enemy units' path finding; block off ramps with supply buildings to block vision and place a turret with range on the border of the killing zone on the ramp; keep a turret to defend against air drops or flying units coming for your workers.

jollyllama 4y ago

"Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man." - George S. Patton

rjsw 4y ago
The one at Metz managed to stop him.
melling 4y ago
I was just trying to find that line from the movie. My Google skills failed me.
nimbius 4y ago
Give me 25lbs of easy mix Dexpan and a hammer drill, and ill show you a gravel pit in about three hours.
- piva00 4y ago
  You forgot the 3 hours of complete ceasefire you will require.
- MagnumOpus 4y ago
  Three hours are a very long time when pounded with artillery or raked with automatic arms...
- arethuza 4y ago
  Didn't someone make a similar comment about Cheyenne Mountain and SS-18s with 25Mt warheads?
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  You're going to survive three hours of pre-targeted direct or indirect fire?
- ISL 4y ago
  TIL about Dexpan. Clever idea. Also, as sibling says, good luck hammer-drilling under fire.

arethuza 4y ago

Ancient hill-forts in the UK often have cheval de frise which are pretty similar in concept e.g. https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3966108 https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3966108

saiya-jin 4y ago

Swiss have their own version in the western part, called now Toblerone line, built after WWI. Now a tourist attraction with hike paths around them, each block weighting 9 tons (and it runs 10km straight up to Jura mountains), the line basically cutting off westernmost part of country (basically Geneva) off the rest. They don't treat it as something ancient though, there is also modern part of it integrated into road [1], but nothing I could notice on highway though. Bear in mind this would protect Switzerland from an attack from France, which these days seems... unprobable. [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Toblerone_Line_road_3.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Toblerone_Line_road_...

i_am_proteus 4y ago

Should you have a forest handy, abatis will also serve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abatis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abatis

thehills 4y ago

All that time and energy and a lump of concrete is enough to hold up 60 tons of mental.

Tuna-Fish 4y ago
Dragon teeth alone won't hold against a tank for more than a few minutes, if the tank just has a bulldozer attachment. Not for bulldozing the teeth, but for pushing enough soil over them so it can effortlessly go over. The purpose is to force enemy to spend time and effort dealing with the obstacle, while you direct fire on them.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  A tank battalion is going to have N engineering and M recon units attached (values of M and N and specific makeup of said units varies by country and service). The point of "inconveniences" like barriers is to a) make the enemy throw an engineering unit at them thereby tipping you off to a probable attack buying you time to mass force there b) just choose to attack somewhere else that is more conveniently defensible for you or where you already have more manpower.
- hadlock 4y ago
  The neat thing about earth moving devices is that they converge at a time and place in a manner in which artillery and nearly any other conceivable weapon can hit them very reliably
- nomel 4y ago
  > Dragon teeth alone won't hold against a tank for more than a few minutes This doesn't seem accurate. While searching for a video that shows a tank trying to go over (unsuccessful), I found a video showing three ways to get over them, and only the explosives would take a few minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRld768HDyc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRld768HDyc Anchored concrete blocks can be made more difficult to move than the dirt under the tracks.
Someone 4y ago
Hundreds of lumps of concrete. A tank will go around a single one in seconds.

323 4y ago

The ones which Russia is now deploying in Ukraine don't appear to be anchored in the ground, just laid on top of it - you can just push them away with a bulldozer or a group of people.

dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
Or drag them out of the way with... a tank.
- 6stringmerc 4y ago
  Something something OSS 'easy field sabotage manual' and "Screw this I didn't want to be here in the first place" fatigue...
- ASalazarMX 4y ago
  I was wondering if firing at the teeth would be a good tactic. Even a space one tank wide would make a big difference.
  - Moru 4y ago
    If you know the exact location a tank will be in at a certain time, the term "sitting duck" comes to mind. There is nothing effektive to stop a human that wants to get from point A to point B. Except for another human.
kazinator 4y ago
But imagine there were other obstacles interspersed among them: barbed wire, landmines. The Wikipedia article mentions tactics like that.
tedmcory77 4y ago
Former infantry here - One of the things that was drilled into my head, obstacles should always be covered by fire to deter these sorts of things. If you can't cover it by fire, then maybe it's not worth putting on obstacle on.

peterclary 4y ago

There are Dragon's Teeth on the banks of the River Wey behind Waverley Abbey in Surrey, England. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dragon%27s_Teeth,_Waverley_Abbey_01.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dragon%27s_Teeth,_Wa...

onion2k 4y ago
That must be why you never see tanks around there.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Lisa, I'd like to buy your Tiger[1] stopping rock. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I
- lapetitejort 4y ago
  I've noticed there aren't a ton of tanks in my area and I'm wondering if there's some dragon's teeth buried in my lawn somewhere. Might do some random digging to find out.
- Borrible 4y ago
  But, where is the dragon?
xnorswap 4y ago
And down the road in Guildford: https://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/through-the-dragons-teeth-a-remarkable-set-of-second-world-war-defences-in-guildford/ https://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/through-the-dragons-...
- arethuza 4y ago
  Remnants of the defensive lines from WW2? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GHQ_Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GHQ_Line

worstenbrood 4y ago

Dont forget https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankgracht https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankgracht

dadarourou 4y ago

In Switzerland, we call them Toblerones, because they have the same shape as the chocolates.

mauvehaus 4y ago
Are the tank traps also getting smaller as the result of shrinkflation? The 200g to 170g change in Toblerone bars is the first example in the Wikipedia article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrinkflation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrinkflation
- daedrdev 4y ago
  That idea is more credible than you might think, videos of Russian Dragon Teeth show smaller spikes more spread apart without a base slab.
- layer8 4y ago
  It would make a lot of sense if the tanks shrinkflate as well.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- lmm 4y ago
  Yep: https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/yajyi7/babe_wake_up_maginot_line_20_just_dropped/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/yajyi7/...

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

Curious from someone with more knowledge. Given some of the results from the war in Ukraine, what's the latest viewpoint on tanks in modern warfare? All I can say is I would rather be an infantryman than a tank operator. Seems way too easy to be a sitting duck given the effectiveness of anti-tank missiles. Honestly I don't really understand the need for manned tanks in any case. Why couldn't they just be operated remotely, and then put your actual soldiers in more nimble forms of transport?

adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
machine guns are very effective against infantry. tanks are vulnerable but they can fight back effectively, and being able to go 40mph and be protected from small and medium calibers makes taking ground a lot easier.
Fomite 4y ago
From a former tanker I know: This has proved that poorly driven and commanded tanks are vulnerable. The Russians are really bad at doing the things necessary to protect themselves. They're all buttoned up. There are a ton of pictures where they're essentially ambushed while in parade formation, rather than how you'd be on a road in a hostile area.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lawn 4y ago
As an aside, it's been interesting to see the impact drones has had in the war. Reconnaissance, blowing up non-tank vehicles, bombing trenches and suicide bombers. Maybe tanks will still have a place in warfare, but I doubt they'll be as ubiquitous as before?
scottLobster 4y ago
Against an enemy with signal jamming capability remote operation is not a given. Plus tanks communicate in real time with infantry/other elements. The lag introduced by remote operation/communication would be a serious hindrance even if everything was working, which it often isn't. Tanks have to respond in real time, they don't have the luxury of seconds of delay like say an orbiting drone. There's also the case of not wanting disabled tanks to fall into the hands of the enemy. Short of rigging the tanks with a self-destruct system (which would likely just make them explode more easily when hit), you need soldiers to do that. Keep in mind that anything operating in battlefield conditions must be resilient. The entire situation is a constant stream of edge cases. Also, don't look to Russia in Ukraine for an example of how tanks are used. Tanks are generally not meant to act alone. Either they're operating with a lot of other tanks, substantial supporting infantry, or both. There are tons of other reasons as well, The Chieften, a former Tanker, has a good video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI7T650RTT8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI7T650RTT8

layer8 4y ago

I suddenly feel the urge to spread a crackpot theory that the pyramids of Giza are really the remnants of a range of dragon’s teeth protecting against giant forgotten-ancient-civilization tanks.

akiselev 4y ago
I believe Dr Daniel Jackson proved conclusively that they were used as landing platform for Ha’tak class capital ships.
- layer8 4y ago
  The one doesn't exclude the other.

_nalply 4y ago

The top image is in Wimmis in Switzerland at the bottom of the Niesen mountain. The mountain resembles a giant pyramid. That's nice: many small pyramids and a giant one. You see the mountain starting to rise in the background of the photo. There is a narrow side valley (Spissi) leading to Western Bernese Oberland and from there you can reach Valais and the Leman basin. Above Wimmis there is a small steep limestone hill (Burgflue) and inside it there is a military bunker with holes to shoot out of. https://s.geo.admin.ch/9b8456f6ad https://s.geo.admin.ch/9b8456f6ad (a topographic map) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niesen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niesen I live not far away therefore I immediately knew it. I verified it with a reverse image search. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Panzersperre_in_Wimmis_01.JPG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Panzersperre_in_Wimm...

foobarian 4y ago

While on the topic of ways to stop tanks, there is also the "hedgehog," or the "Czech hedgehog [1]." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_hedgehog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_hedgehog

bamboozled 4y ago

As with any fortification, they are not indestructible. A well prepared force can employ engineers to destroy the blocks with relative ease and create paths through the dragon’s teeth. This occurred on many occasions during WWII. So not really that good at stopping tanks?

canadianfella 4y ago

rkagerer 4y ago

Anyone have a photo of a tank stuck on these?

tristanb 4y ago

A tank has a giant gun on it. Can't you just blow up a big chunk and drive on through?

int_19h 4y ago
These things are basically huge lumps of solid concrete. You can blow them up, but a blast strong enough to reduce them to rubble requires way more explosives than a single tank shell can pack. Combat engineers can do it better and faster.
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
  > Combat engineers can do it better and faster. Plus, let's be honest...they really love blowing things up.

toddmorey 4y ago

This website is like dragon’s teeth for visitors, at least on mobile.

alias_neo 4y ago
How so? Aside from the images being too small and none of the videos playing, the text was readable and layed out properly for mobile.

usefulcat 4y ago

Been playing Total Annihilation for ~25 years and TIL where the name “dragons teeth” comes from.

avereveard 4y ago
Thought all player had been on zero-k in the last decade

Jeff_Brown 4y ago

Let's send mud catapults to Ukraine.

mbank 4y ago

What a lot of people don't know: the standard NATO barbedwire - correctly deployed - is highly effective against tanks: It messes up the chains and is a nightmare to remove (eg blowing them up is not an option).

gloosx 4y ago

Why tank can't simple shoot these with an onboard cannon, assuming they got clearance to move freely in this area, they can just lay one or two good shots and go thru