7 ms·

Crossrail gets cross

89 points by zeristor 4y ago

thinkingemote 4y ago
Entertaining writing!
- iggldiggl 4y ago
  Personally, I'd say the whole blog is a goldmine of entertaining writing. Plus it's also yielded some good suggestions on some places to visit in (or occasionally even outside of) London.
  - vesinisa 4y ago
    If you are into video-form content, you might also enjoy Jago Hazzard's YouTube channel. Here's a random pick - a video about why the Mithcham Tram Stop might have a valid claim to being the oldest railway station in London: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKJqY4e5xrk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKJqY4e5xrk (You might first want to view this video as background for context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnNIzCUg9G4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnNIzCUg9G4)
- distcs 4y ago
  What about the writing is entertaining? Not trying to be dismissive. I found the writing style authentic, factual, a very reporter-style writing. I did not find anything particularly entertaining. What am I missing?
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Entraining doesn't necessarily mean funny, it just means that it was enjoyable to read and not a necessity to read, I guess. (I'm going to leave the iPhone suggested spellcheck).
  - toyg 4y ago
    Bits like "You may still have been in bed at this point, and it's perfectly possible you were having the better time."
    - distcs 4y ago
      Ah! Thanks. I missed taking that sentence completely in. Need to read it again.
      - eesmith 4y ago
        I smiled at "People Who Like Trains were very much in evidence" given that I watched Geoff Marshall's video "Through Running Starts on the Elizabeth Line" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXJQQ7YQ3gw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXJQQ7YQ3gw on the new changes. Marshall is very much a Person Who Likes Trains, and in the video he talks with others of that ilk.
    - utexaspunk 4y ago
      IDK, all the NBs are a bit distracting
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      And "Excitable folk continued to walk up and down the train, including one in full purple fleece and joggers with an Elizabeth line bag round his neck. I can't see his look catching on." Lovely dry British understatement.
- rtanks 4y ago
  I think it's great!
smcl 4y ago
Good to see the project delivered. Northern Powerhouse rail next ...
- empedocles 4y ago
  We can dream, but somehow I suspect that the "painful choices" Hunt warns of will fall more on the North.
  - distcs 4y ago
    I thought it was about health care and welfare.
    - blitzar 4y ago
      hence why it will hit the north harder.
  - smcl 4y ago
    Sadly I share your pessimism
    - zeristor 4y ago
      One would think that there would be diminishing returns to more infrastructure in London, that some investment in the Power House North would do wonders. A high speed rail linking up Liverpool to Hull sounds like a good idea, there are the Penniness to drill though, but it would hardly be the Gotthard base tunnel would it. Pennine base tunnel anyone? [update: this turns out to be a study for a road tunnel] https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/trans-pennine-tunnel-strategic-study-stage-3-report.pdf https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/trans-pe...
      - TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
        Tory governments have negative interest in "levelling up" the North. There's a lot of rhetoric, but all the action has been destructive. Liverpool to Hull would be transformative, as would an improved service to London. But the Leeds leg of HS2 was (predictably) one of the first things to be cut, so I wouldn't expect either to happen any time soon.
noodlesUK 4y ago
I never thought too much about crossrail before it opened unless there was some disruption that it caused. I’ve always supported mass transit projects but as I wasn’t really the target audience it never caught my imagination. I’ve now tried the Elizabeth line and I’m so glad it was delivered. It’s staggering how big and beautiful the stations are. I remember thinking that this is probably what it would be like to live in subterranean cities on mars. Bring on HS2 next!
- iamben 4y ago
  The platform size / train length is a bit mind blowing. Coming in to Liverpool Street from the east - if you're at the back of the train you're in position to get off at Liverpool St. If you're at the front you're getting off at Moorgate! Crazy!
  - bombcar 4y ago
    https://goo.gl/maps/E5jn2AcJtj85S8gp8 https://goo.gl/maps/E5jn2AcJtj85S8gp8 for those not from the area, looks like about 1000 feet or more between them.
- marcosscriven 4y ago
  I’m excited there’s now a reasonably priced way to get from central London to Heathrow, without advance booking. On may way out last week I had to do the change at Paddington. Really looking forward to going straight to Tottenham Court Road from T4 on one go!
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    You know it isn't reasonably priced... It's still got a special airport surcharge of a whopping £12.80 each way, and still costs more than an airport transfer at pretty much every other European capital city.
    - Erwin 4y ago
      Stockholm's Arlanda Express is 299 SEK (24.18 GBP) each way and around 40km away. For a 17 minute trip with the train!
IshKebab 4y ago
Would it theoretically be possible to have a single train go from e.g. Norwich to Bristol?
- Xophmeister 4y ago
  Theoretically possible in the sense that the lines exist and are connected? I don't know for sure, and while it may be a very convoluted route, I wouldn't be surprised. EDIT: This map[1] suggests you could do Norwich -> Birmingham New Street -> Bristol Temple Meads. Without having to go through London, I suspect this is indeed possible without changing trains, even if no operator runs that route. [1]: https://www.thetrainline.com/cmsmedia/cms/9384/national-rail-map-2.jpg https://www.thetrainline.com/cmsmedia/cms/9384/national-rail...
- switch007 4y ago
  Perhaps, but if it means CrossCountry running the service you’d rather walk
- Tsiklon 4y ago
  Theoretically: Absolutely - If Norwich has the same type of electrification as the Great Western Main Line. The Class 345 trains that run in the Elizabeth Line, have the signalling for the Great Western Main Line, Crossrail Core & Great Eastern Main Line. In practice, no - different train companies operate all 3 lines
  - misterpurple45 4y ago
    The train companies operate trains, not lines. For example; CrossCountry’s service runs on track shared with other passenger companies and freight from Penzance up to Scotland.
    - Tsiklon 4y ago
      The train companies (in general) operate a franchise for a particular region of the railway (including mandatory service to less profitable areas in the network). CrossCountry is a quirk in that it operates the "Cross Country" franchise and it has no specific track to itself. Eurostar, Grand Central and Heathrow Express are Open Access operators in that they have no franchise of their own but pay to use the track for each journey. The whole thing is needlessly complicated to be honest, there's no real exclusivity - but there's massive capital costs involved in setting up a competitor and more risk involved for these Open Access operators. Great Western Railway operates the Great Western franchise which incorporates much of south wales and south west of england - Including the Great western mainline. Abellio Greater Anglia operates most services on the Great Eastern Mainline As for permissions I don't know if the crossrail core section has exclusivity granted to TFL (or its subcontractor MTR Corporation), given it's run as a concession this may be the case.
bobthepanda 4y ago
If only the US would make major investments in regional rail like this, instead of either doing nothing or harrumphing that commuter rail should be run the way it has been run for the past 100 years.
- asdff 4y ago
  Infrastructure in the U.S. is broken in terms of how it is supposed to be delivered these days. The unfortunate side effect of the freeway revolts of the 1960s putting a nail in grade separated vehicular right of ways in urban areas is that these same legal arguments and protections are now leveled against grade separated transit ways in urban areas by moneyed groups that argue in bad faith. Transit agencies now spend time planning and developing alternative options that are suboptimal, knowing full well 5/6 of these will be wasted efforts and only one will be chosen, just to give these busybodies some semblance of control of large scale engineering projects they aren't qualified to understand. You should read up all of the drama surrounding the purple line and the eventual sepulveda transit line in la. The issue: subway tunnel boring under a rich neighborhood. Fireworks ensue along with broken understandings of physics and geology but in the end, people used nonscientific arguments to delay the purple line extension in LA for 20 years (1), and are trying to use these arguments to kill a subway line (2) that would bore under a mountain and in no way shape or form affect the complaining rich Bel Air community above it. Somehow you don't hear a peep from the people in the hollywood hills living above the redline subway tunnel, nor see any affect on their property values from having a train move several hundred feet below the parcel offered for sale. Everything takes more money and a lot more time than it should to do anything at all, compared in years previous when people would generally see infrastructure and progress as a good thing. 1. https://www.lamag.com/driver/beverly-hills-finally-loses-crazy-stupid-subway-battle/ https://www.lamag.com/driver/beverly-hills-finally-loses-cra... 2. https://www.curbed.com/2022/02/bel-air-subway-tunnel-los-angeles.html https://www.curbed.com/2022/02/bel-air-subway-tunnel-los-ang...
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    Most Transport Agencies are basically just high way construction offices. That is basically why they were created, or at least when state level DoT became massive, to construct highway. They can build an mind glowingly insane 7 level loop clover with integrated rocket launcher and helipad but they couldn't design a safe and efficient pedestrian crossing if it smacked them in the face. They are still planning new highways right threw actual real existing cities as if they were Robert Moses. Its literal insanity.
matthewmacleod 4y ago
It really is a very well-implemented project. I also went for a ride on the first train through the tunnels on Sunday, and the impact it's going to have on a lot of journeys across London was pretty clear. It's not absolutely perfect. The absence of step-free boarding at the stations shared with National Rail infrastructure is unfortunate, and some of the interchanges with other lines involve annoyingly long paths. But these are compromises and I really hope some of them can be rectified in the future. But the design of the stations, the lighting, the trains… just all absolutely first-rate.
jimnotgym 4y ago
> 13 years of construction, I find it funny that the first underground railway in London was built in a little over 2 years....by hand. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Railway https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Railway
- DrBazza 4y ago
  Cut and cover though. Dig a cutting in a road. Put the top back on. Met line, District line, Circle line.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    If you are cleaver you can put the top on and then dig things out under. Lots of weird and hard to explain variations like thus exist that are just as cheap as digging and then putting a top on. But instead everyone wants to go for expensive tunnels first despite not being needed. We really should do more elevated rail, which is a lot cheaper than digging.
    - foldr 4y ago
      There's absolutely no way that Crossrail could have been done with cut and cover. Take a look at this diagram of Bond street station, for example: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/3D-model-view-of-Bond-Street-Station-Upgrade-Existing-tunnels-in-transparent-colours_fig1_318128851 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/3D-model-view-of-Bond-St... You can't dig up the area around Bond street and close down existing tube services during construction. (The crossrail tunnels run under some existing lines.)
- jahewson 4y ago
  Things are easier when you get to destroy thousands of peoples homes and just dig a trench to put your tunnel in.
  - jimnotgym 4y ago
    I'm sure there were plenty of engineering challenges in building the first!
nsteel 4y ago
As someone who lives west, the wait coming into Paddington is really annoying. It's definitely worse so far, compared to previously when you zoomed straight in and then changed. Hopefully they make things line up a bit better. My station only gets 4 trains an hour so there's still going to be lots of waiting around at Paddington on the way home also. It is great in the central section though, a really nice job on the platforms etc. And actually the upgrade to step free stations on the western section is good. Although their idea of "step free" is questionable, the gap is huge!!
- fredoralive 4y ago
  The delays are until May AFAIK, the main National Rail timetables only have major changes a couple of times a year, but they want the through connection to Crossrail open ASAP, so have an inelegant kludge of trains waiting outside Paddington to sync up the Crossrail core and NR timetables until then.

89 points by zeristor 4y ago

thinkingemote 4y ago

Entertaining writing!

iggldiggl 4y ago
Personally, I'd say the whole blog is a goldmine of entertaining writing. Plus it's also yielded some good suggestions on some places to visit in (or occasionally even outside of) London.
- vesinisa 4y ago
  If you are into video-form content, you might also enjoy Jago Hazzard's YouTube channel. Here's a random pick - a video about why the Mithcham Tram Stop might have a valid claim to being the oldest railway station in London: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKJqY4e5xrk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKJqY4e5xrk (You might first want to view this video as background for context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnNIzCUg9G4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnNIzCUg9G4)
distcs 4y ago
What about the writing is entertaining? Not trying to be dismissive. I found the writing style authentic, factual, a very reporter-style writing. I did not find anything particularly entertaining. What am I missing?
- bombcar 4y ago
  Entraining doesn't necessarily mean funny, it just means that it was enjoyable to read and not a necessity to read, I guess. (I'm going to leave the iPhone suggested spellcheck).
- toyg 4y ago
  Bits like "You may still have been in bed at this point, and it's perfectly possible you were having the better time."
  - distcs 4y ago
    Ah! Thanks. I missed taking that sentence completely in. Need to read it again.
    - eesmith 4y ago
      I smiled at "People Who Like Trains were very much in evidence" given that I watched Geoff Marshall's video "Through Running Starts on the Elizabeth Line" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXJQQ7YQ3gw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXJQQ7YQ3gw on the new changes. Marshall is very much a Person Who Likes Trains, and in the video he talks with others of that ilk.
  - utexaspunk 4y ago
    IDK, all the NBs are a bit distracting
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    And "Excitable folk continued to walk up and down the train, including one in full purple fleece and joggers with an Elizabeth line bag round his neck. I can't see his look catching on." Lovely dry British understatement.
rtanks 4y ago
I think it's great!

smcl 4y ago

Good to see the project delivered. Northern Powerhouse rail next ...

empedocles 4y ago
We can dream, but somehow I suspect that the "painful choices" Hunt warns of will fall more on the North.
- distcs 4y ago
  I thought it was about health care and welfare.
  - blitzar 4y ago
    hence why it will hit the north harder.
- smcl 4y ago
  Sadly I share your pessimism
  - zeristor 4y ago
    One would think that there would be diminishing returns to more infrastructure in London, that some investment in the Power House North would do wonders. A high speed rail linking up Liverpool to Hull sounds like a good idea, there are the Penniness to drill though, but it would hardly be the Gotthard base tunnel would it. Pennine base tunnel anyone? [update: this turns out to be a study for a road tunnel] https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/trans-pennine-tunnel-strategic-study-stage-3-report.pdf https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/trans-pe...
    - TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
      Tory governments have negative interest in "levelling up" the North. There's a lot of rhetoric, but all the action has been destructive. Liverpool to Hull would be transformative, as would an improved service to London. But the Leeds leg of HS2 was (predictably) one of the first things to be cut, so I wouldn't expect either to happen any time soon.

noodlesUK 4y ago

I never thought too much about crossrail before it opened unless there was some disruption that it caused. I’ve always supported mass transit projects but as I wasn’t really the target audience it never caught my imagination. I’ve now tried the Elizabeth line and I’m so glad it was delivered. It’s staggering how big and beautiful the stations are. I remember thinking that this is probably what it would be like to live in subterranean cities on mars. Bring on HS2 next!

iamben 4y ago
The platform size / train length is a bit mind blowing. Coming in to Liverpool Street from the east - if you're at the back of the train you're in position to get off at Liverpool St. If you're at the front you're getting off at Moorgate! Crazy!
- bombcar 4y ago
  https://goo.gl/maps/E5jn2AcJtj85S8gp8 https://goo.gl/maps/E5jn2AcJtj85S8gp8 for those not from the area, looks like about 1000 feet or more between them.
marcosscriven 4y ago
I’m excited there’s now a reasonably priced way to get from central London to Heathrow, without advance booking. On may way out last week I had to do the change at Paddington. Really looking forward to going straight to Tottenham Court Road from T4 on one go!
- londons_explore 4y ago
  You know it isn't reasonably priced... It's still got a special airport surcharge of a whopping £12.80 each way, and still costs more than an airport transfer at pretty much every other European capital city.
  - Erwin 4y ago
    Stockholm's Arlanda Express is 299 SEK (24.18 GBP) each way and around 40km away. For a 17 minute trip with the train!

IshKebab 4y ago

Would it theoretically be possible to have a single train go from e.g. Norwich to Bristol?

Xophmeister 4y ago
Theoretically possible in the sense that the lines exist and are connected? I don't know for sure, and while it may be a very convoluted route, I wouldn't be surprised. EDIT: This map[1] suggests you could do Norwich -> Birmingham New Street -> Bristol Temple Meads. Without having to go through London, I suspect this is indeed possible without changing trains, even if no operator runs that route. [1]: https://www.thetrainline.com/cmsmedia/cms/9384/national-rail-map-2.jpg https://www.thetrainline.com/cmsmedia/cms/9384/national-rail...
switch007 4y ago
Perhaps, but if it means CrossCountry running the service you’d rather walk
Tsiklon 4y ago
Theoretically: Absolutely - If Norwich has the same type of electrification as the Great Western Main Line. The Class 345 trains that run in the Elizabeth Line, have the signalling for the Great Western Main Line, Crossrail Core & Great Eastern Main Line. In practice, no - different train companies operate all 3 lines
- misterpurple45 4y ago
  The train companies operate trains, not lines. For example; CrossCountry’s service runs on track shared with other passenger companies and freight from Penzance up to Scotland.
  - Tsiklon 4y ago
    The train companies (in general) operate a franchise for a particular region of the railway (including mandatory service to less profitable areas in the network). CrossCountry is a quirk in that it operates the "Cross Country" franchise and it has no specific track to itself. Eurostar, Grand Central and Heathrow Express are Open Access operators in that they have no franchise of their own but pay to use the track for each journey. The whole thing is needlessly complicated to be honest, there's no real exclusivity - but there's massive capital costs involved in setting up a competitor and more risk involved for these Open Access operators. Great Western Railway operates the Great Western franchise which incorporates much of south wales and south west of england - Including the Great western mainline. Abellio Greater Anglia operates most services on the Great Eastern Mainline As for permissions I don't know if the crossrail core section has exclusivity granted to TFL (or its subcontractor MTR Corporation), given it's run as a concession this may be the case.

bobthepanda 4y ago

If only the US would make major investments in regional rail like this, instead of either doing nothing or harrumphing that commuter rail should be run the way it has been run for the past 100 years.

asdff 4y ago
Infrastructure in the U.S. is broken in terms of how it is supposed to be delivered these days. The unfortunate side effect of the freeway revolts of the 1960s putting a nail in grade separated vehicular right of ways in urban areas is that these same legal arguments and protections are now leveled against grade separated transit ways in urban areas by moneyed groups that argue in bad faith. Transit agencies now spend time planning and developing alternative options that are suboptimal, knowing full well 5/6 of these will be wasted efforts and only one will be chosen, just to give these busybodies some semblance of control of large scale engineering projects they aren't qualified to understand. You should read up all of the drama surrounding the purple line and the eventual sepulveda transit line in la. The issue: subway tunnel boring under a rich neighborhood. Fireworks ensue along with broken understandings of physics and geology but in the end, people used nonscientific arguments to delay the purple line extension in LA for 20 years (1), and are trying to use these arguments to kill a subway line (2) that would bore under a mountain and in no way shape or form affect the complaining rich Bel Air community above it. Somehow you don't hear a peep from the people in the hollywood hills living above the redline subway tunnel, nor see any affect on their property values from having a train move several hundred feet below the parcel offered for sale. Everything takes more money and a lot more time than it should to do anything at all, compared in years previous when people would generally see infrastructure and progress as a good thing. 1. https://www.lamag.com/driver/beverly-hills-finally-loses-crazy-stupid-subway-battle/ https://www.lamag.com/driver/beverly-hills-finally-loses-cra... 2. https://www.curbed.com/2022/02/bel-air-subway-tunnel-los-angeles.html https://www.curbed.com/2022/02/bel-air-subway-tunnel-los-ang...
- panick21_ 4y ago
  Most Transport Agencies are basically just high way construction offices. That is basically why they were created, or at least when state level DoT became massive, to construct highway. They can build an mind glowingly insane 7 level loop clover with integrated rocket launcher and helipad but they couldn't design a safe and efficient pedestrian crossing if it smacked them in the face. They are still planning new highways right threw actual real existing cities as if they were Robert Moses. Its literal insanity.

matthewmacleod 4y ago

It really is a very well-implemented project. I also went for a ride on the first train through the tunnels on Sunday, and the impact it's going to have on a lot of journeys across London was pretty clear. It's not absolutely perfect. The absence of step-free boarding at the stations shared with National Rail infrastructure is unfortunate, and some of the interchanges with other lines involve annoyingly long paths. But these are compromises and I really hope some of them can be rectified in the future. But the design of the stations, the lighting, the trains… just all absolutely first-rate.

jimnotgym 4y ago

> 13 years of construction, I find it funny that the first underground railway in London was built in a little over 2 years....by hand. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Railway https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Railway

DrBazza 4y ago
Cut and cover though. Dig a cutting in a road. Put the top back on. Met line, District line, Circle line.
- bluGill 4y ago
  If you are cleaver you can put the top on and then dig things out under. Lots of weird and hard to explain variations like thus exist that are just as cheap as digging and then putting a top on. But instead everyone wants to go for expensive tunnels first despite not being needed. We really should do more elevated rail, which is a lot cheaper than digging.
  - foldr 4y ago
    There's absolutely no way that Crossrail could have been done with cut and cover. Take a look at this diagram of Bond street station, for example: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/3D-model-view-of-Bond-Street-Station-Upgrade-Existing-tunnels-in-transparent-colours_fig1_318128851 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/3D-model-view-of-Bond-St... You can't dig up the area around Bond street and close down existing tube services during construction. (The crossrail tunnels run under some existing lines.)
jahewson 4y ago
Things are easier when you get to destroy thousands of peoples homes and just dig a trench to put your tunnel in.
- jimnotgym 4y ago
  I'm sure there were plenty of engineering challenges in building the first!

nsteel 4y ago

As someone who lives west, the wait coming into Paddington is really annoying. It's definitely worse so far, compared to previously when you zoomed straight in and then changed. Hopefully they make things line up a bit better. My station only gets 4 trains an hour so there's still going to be lots of waiting around at Paddington on the way home also. It is great in the central section though, a really nice job on the platforms etc. And actually the upgrade to step free stations on the western section is good. Although their idea of "step free" is questionable, the gap is huge!!

fredoralive 4y ago
The delays are until May AFAIK, the main National Rail timetables only have major changes a couple of times a year, but they want the through connection to Crossrail open ASAP, so have an inelegant kludge of trains waiting outside Paddington to sync up the Crossrail core and NR timetables until then.