5 ms·

Did those things appear because philosophers talked about them or did philosophers talk about them because they appeared?

unsupp0rted 4y ago
I can easily imagine an Earth with no philosophers after say Aristotle that is functionally identical to our current one.
- TuringTest 4y ago
  Minus evidence-based science, free markets, government of the people, freedom of religion and the end of slavery. Yep, exactly the same.
  - LudwigNagasena 4y ago
    Might as well attribute all of that to Christianity. That claim probably holds as much water.
    - andrepd 4y ago
      Attributing science and freedom of religion to Christianity? That's a bold thought.
      - dublin 4y ago
        And a correct one. There is a reason these things did not develop until when and where they did...
        woodruffw 4y ago
        Pinning concepts like "science" and "freedom" to a specific era is a silly endeavor. But if you had to, neither would originate in Christian Europe: science as a concept predates Christianity by at least 800 years; the thing we call "freedom" today didn't take shape until 1600 years into Christian Europe's development. Christianity, like just about every religion, has made invaluable contributions to philosophy. But it's ahistorical, to an embarrassing degree, to attribute such broad concepts and bodies of inquiry to it.
- ConceptJunkie 4y ago
  Wow. I guess you're not familiar with any philosophers other than Aristotle, otherwise you could never make such a statement.
  - unsupp0rted 4y ago
    Please elaborate
    - whatshisface 4y ago
      There should be a rule where you're not allowed to phrase a question as a false statement that insults a lot of people...
- Tainnor 4y ago
  Without philosophy, there is no Hegel, without Hegel there is no Marx, without Marx there is no Lenin, without Lenin, there is no Stalin, without Stalin there is no Cold War, without the Cold War there's probably not a war in Ukraine right now, and without a war in Ukraine I wouldn't be worried about my gas bill. I think that's pretty concrete. (Just a single, rather obvious example. Easy enough to find others.)
woodruffw 4y ago
Each of the examples I gave have direct origins in philosophy. It’s not even clear what the alternative would be for Hobbes and Popper; for Frege you could call him a mathematician instead, I suppose, if you ignore all of the other philosophy he did.
- kbrkbr 4y ago
  The causality here is hard to prove, even untangle. I think the French Revolution was largely more influential for the state of governments today. I also think that science was not influenced so much by Popper, but much more by Fisher and Neyman. People tend to use what is a successful tool, and be influenced by power and theatre, not so much by fragile logical constructs without empirical value found sitting in the armchair.
  - Tainnor 4y ago
    Do you think the French Revolution happened in a vacuum? Without the ideals of Enlightenment philosophy it would have amounted to nothing more than mob violence (if it had even gotten started at all).
    - kbrkbr 4y ago
      Good point, I agree that it did not. Were those ideas however progress, or a tool that the Committee of Public Safety used because it fit their agenda? Was this philosophy finding truth that guided policy, or was it making up rhetorical arguments in a power struggle on behalf of the rising middle class and its policy? In absence of criteria of non empirical truth that are independent of the very non empirical truths they are criteria for I tend to believe the latter. In addition to this inherent weakness philosophical arguments are not for the masses anyways. Not even philosophers usually agree what they mean or entail. How could those idea(l)s have guided the revolution as more than just superficial self justification? Remember that the enemies of the French Revolution had their philosophers too, they just lost. Historical events usually have very mundane reasons, class struggles, geopolitics etc. Ideas may play a part too. But I believe not in the sense that they are the horses in front of the cart.

unsupp0rted 4y ago

I can easily imagine an Earth with no philosophers after say Aristotle that is functionally identical to our current one.

TuringTest 4y ago
Minus evidence-based science, free markets, government of the people, freedom of religion and the end of slavery. Yep, exactly the same.
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  Might as well attribute all of that to Christianity. That claim probably holds as much water.
  - andrepd 4y ago
    Attributing science and freedom of religion to Christianity? That's a bold thought.
    - dublin 4y ago
      And a correct one. There is a reason these things did not develop until when and where they did...
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        Pinning concepts like "science" and "freedom" to a specific era is a silly endeavor. But if you had to, neither would originate in Christian Europe: science as a concept predates Christianity by at least 800 years; the thing we call "freedom" today didn't take shape until 1600 years into Christian Europe's development. Christianity, like just about every religion, has made invaluable contributions to philosophy. But it's ahistorical, to an embarrassing degree, to attribute such broad concepts and bodies of inquiry to it.
ConceptJunkie 4y ago
Wow. I guess you're not familiar with any philosophers other than Aristotle, otherwise you could never make such a statement.
- unsupp0rted 4y ago
  Please elaborate
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    There should be a rule where you're not allowed to phrase a question as a false statement that insults a lot of people...
Tainnor 4y ago
Without philosophy, there is no Hegel, without Hegel there is no Marx, without Marx there is no Lenin, without Lenin, there is no Stalin, without Stalin there is no Cold War, without the Cold War there's probably not a war in Ukraine right now, and without a war in Ukraine I wouldn't be worried about my gas bill. I think that's pretty concrete. (Just a single, rather obvious example. Easy enough to find others.)

woodruffw 4y ago

Each of the examples I gave have direct origins in philosophy. It’s not even clear what the alternative would be for Hobbes and Popper; for Frege you could call him a mathematician instead, I suppose, if you ignore all of the other philosophy he did.

kbrkbr 4y ago
The causality here is hard to prove, even untangle. I think the French Revolution was largely more influential for the state of governments today. I also think that science was not influenced so much by Popper, but much more by Fisher and Neyman. People tend to use what is a successful tool, and be influenced by power and theatre, not so much by fragile logical constructs without empirical value found sitting in the armchair.
- Tainnor 4y ago
  Do you think the French Revolution happened in a vacuum? Without the ideals of Enlightenment philosophy it would have amounted to nothing more than mob violence (if it had even gotten started at all).
  - kbrkbr 4y ago
    Good point, I agree that it did not. Were those ideas however progress, or a tool that the Committee of Public Safety used because it fit their agenda? Was this philosophy finding truth that guided policy, or was it making up rhetorical arguments in a power struggle on behalf of the rising middle class and its policy? In absence of criteria of non empirical truth that are independent of the very non empirical truths they are criteria for I tend to believe the latter. In addition to this inherent weakness philosophical arguments are not for the masses anyways. Not even philosophers usually agree what they mean or entail. How could those idea(l)s have guided the revolution as more than just superficial self justification? Remember that the enemies of the French Revolution had their philosophers too, they just lost. Historical events usually have very mundane reasons, class struggles, geopolitics etc. Ideas may play a part too. But I believe not in the sense that they are the horses in front of the cart.