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Maybe I missed that part but i don't see how they establish which is the cause and which is the effect. People do switch to healthier or perceiver-to-be-healthi

Maybe I missed that part but i don't see how they establish which is the cause and which is the effect. People do switch to healthier or perceiver-to-be-healthier alternatives once they get sick, so it might well be that those with problems switched to vegetable fat. (People in the hospital die more often than those not hospitalised - ergo hospitals kill people!) And of course the usual link to wider socioeconomic status needs a bit more exploring.

steve_adams_86 4y ago
> People do switch to healthier or perceiver-to-be-healthier alternatives once they get sick I always forget this part, and you're right – it's critical, and often used by industry interests to help indicate healthier options are in fact less healthy. It can be hard to catch sometimes, and before I knew how to read these studies, I was tricked by it very, very often. We also know in the case of the disease they're concerned about here, that without radical dietary changes (i.e. eating plant fats OR animal fats won't save you here) then the damages you've likely been exposing yourself to for decades are probably going to kill you soon, anyway. Arterial plaque doesn't vanish when you start frying eggs in canola instead of pork fat. Another thing to consider here is: what do elderly Chinese consider to be healthy? Are the ones switching to animal fats doing that because it's culturally perceived as healthier? Or are they more like North Americans, thinking canola is the heart-healthy oil? It's hard to tell, not being around the age of 65 and living in China. I do appreciate that they accounted for diet composition to a degree, though it's self-reported and again, not reliable particularly among people trying to change old habits.
Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
It shouldn't be surprising that lard is healthier than vegetable oil. Think about things like cotton-seed oil, rapeseed oil and canola oil. These things are imposible to consume without industrial processing. Meat has always been a staple in the human diet. It's the hunt in hunting and gathering: the gathering mainly beeing fruit, but admittedly also seeds. but of course the oil obtained in seeds never reached the amount we have now. While that's not conlclusive in itself there has actualy been a lot of research on polyunsaturated fatty acids lately with worrying results. One could reasonably phrase the question this way: what evidence is there that polyunsaturated fatty acids are healthy? Also, it's unreasonable to say that in a study of 15,000 people, the cause of those who used vegetable oil were those with ASCVD and therefore chose to cook with it. In any event, this possibilty is ruled out: >Based on 15,242 Chinese elderly people over 65 years old who had long-term adherence to dietary habits and types of edible oils,[...] >And of course the usual link to wider socioeconomic status needs a bit more exploring. This is accounted for in the article. In fact "evaluation of other variables" makes up the entire alaysis.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  > Think about things like cotton-seed oil, rapeseed oil and canola oil. These things are imposible to consume without industrial processing. I would include olive oil in this too. I once tried to eat an olive off the tree. Never again. Completely inedible. Heavily processed for human consumption. Edit: canola and rapeseed are the same thing
  - nanomonkey 4y ago
    Good luck eating a cow fresh out of the pasture.
    - Ekaros 4y ago
      I have always wondered about it. Would actually fresh beef be tough? And by fresh I mean eating it same day it is butchered.
      - DiabloD3 4y ago
        I've actually inquired about that, since I'm Paleo. You can buy beef that is frozen the same day its butchered from small local farms, and from the people I know who have done that (and have half a cow in their chest freezers to prove it), it's absolutely delicious and tender.
    - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
      You can totaly do that. You can also eat meat completly raw. These guys[0][1] are certainly looking better than most vegans at least (from a muscle perspective) [0]https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/eat/bodybuilder-brian-johnson-swears-by-gross-raw-meat-diet/news-story/5e0c53e1c83a7931db08537f95d02754 https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/eat/bodybuilder-brian... [1]https://nypost.com/2021/10/05/man-has-lived-on-raw-meat-diet-including-chicken-for-3-years/ https://nypost.com/2021/10/05/man-has-lived-on-raw-meat-diet...
      - tacotacotaco 4y ago

steve_adams_86 4y ago

> People do switch to healthier or perceiver-to-be-healthier alternatives once they get sick I always forget this part, and you're right – it's critical, and often used by industry interests to help indicate healthier options are in fact less healthy. It can be hard to catch sometimes, and before I knew how to read these studies, I was tricked by it very, very often. We also know in the case of the disease they're concerned about here, that without radical dietary changes (i.e. eating plant fats OR animal fats won't save you here) then the damages you've likely been exposing yourself to for decades are probably going to kill you soon, anyway. Arterial plaque doesn't vanish when you start frying eggs in canola instead of pork fat. Another thing to consider here is: what do elderly Chinese consider to be healthy? Are the ones switching to animal fats doing that because it's culturally perceived as healthier? Or are they more like North Americans, thinking canola is the heart-healthy oil? It's hard to tell, not being around the age of 65 and living in China. I do appreciate that they accounted for diet composition to a degree, though it's self-reported and again, not reliable particularly among people trying to change old habits.

Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago

It shouldn't be surprising that lard is healthier than vegetable oil. Think about things like cotton-seed oil, rapeseed oil and canola oil. These things are imposible to consume without industrial processing. Meat has always been a staple in the human diet. It's the hunt in hunting and gathering: the gathering mainly beeing fruit, but admittedly also seeds. but of course the oil obtained in seeds never reached the amount we have now. While that's not conlclusive in itself there has actualy been a lot of research on polyunsaturated fatty acids lately with worrying results. One could reasonably phrase the question this way: what evidence is there that polyunsaturated fatty acids are healthy? Also, it's unreasonable to say that in a study of 15,000 people, the cause of those who used vegetable oil were those with ASCVD and therefore chose to cook with it. In any event, this possibilty is ruled out: >Based on 15,242 Chinese elderly people over 65 years old who had long-term adherence to dietary habits and types of edible oils,[...] >And of course the usual link to wider socioeconomic status needs a bit more exploring. This is accounted for in the article. In fact "evaluation of other variables" makes up the entire alaysis.

Scoundreller 4y ago
> Think about things like cotton-seed oil, rapeseed oil and canola oil. These things are imposible to consume without industrial processing. I would include olive oil in this too. I once tried to eat an olive off the tree. Never again. Completely inedible. Heavily processed for human consumption. Edit: canola and rapeseed are the same thing
- nanomonkey 4y ago
  Good luck eating a cow fresh out of the pasture.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    I have always wondered about it. Would actually fresh beef be tough? And by fresh I mean eating it same day it is butchered.
    - DiabloD3 4y ago
      I've actually inquired about that, since I'm Paleo. You can buy beef that is frozen the same day its butchered from small local farms, and from the people I know who have done that (and have half a cow in their chest freezers to prove it), it's absolutely delicious and tender.
  - Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
    You can totaly do that. You can also eat meat completly raw. These guys[0][1] are certainly looking better than most vegans at least (from a muscle perspective) [0]https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/eat/bodybuilder-brian-johnson-swears-by-gross-raw-meat-diet/news-story/5e0c53e1c83a7931db08537f95d02754 https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/eat/bodybuilder-brian... [1]https://nypost.com/2021/10/05/man-has-lived-on-raw-meat-diet-including-chicken-for-3-years/ https://nypost.com/2021/10/05/man-has-lived-on-raw-meat-diet...
    - tacotacotaco 4y ago