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Someone commented on that page: "Just use Rust, you stupid corporate normies." which seems a bit odd considering the different goals. The 'big deal' here seems

Someone commented on that page: "Just use Rust, you stupid corporate normies." which seems a bit odd considering the different goals. The 'big deal' here seems to be formal verification, not just "something that is not C" which is what people appear to assume here. Something I suspect they focus on here is the boot ROM or the SEP RtOS, which is small enough to warrant this kind of scrutiny.

Traubenfuchs 4y ago
naikrovek 4y ago
commenters like that have turned me off of rust entirely and completely.
- api 4y ago
  You shouldn't use Linux then. Linux evangelists were far more obnoxious when Linux was first making the rounds. This is just how tech works and how tech people tend to behave.
  - adimineman 4y ago
    :/
  - TurboHaskal 4y ago
    Don't make me remember the Python evangelists back in the day when they were targeting Perl.
    - naikrovek 4y ago
      I remember those fools. those people are why I won't use python even today, 20 yrs or so later. if python was 10% as good as they claimed, it would be the most wonderful creation of mankind, past and future, by a factor of three.
      - Kon-Peki 4y ago
        LOL, I can still remember the python "enthusiast" who lived across the hall from me in the freshman dorm in 1996/97. He is forever etched in my brain. I ran into him at a bar in Indianapolis 10 years or so ago when our alma mater was in the Sweet Sixteen. Must have drunkenly passed along my email address. Because about a year ago, he sent me a link to an interview he had given about the new thing he was passionate about. I congratulated him and asked a few questions out of kindness. Yeah, the response was exactly what you could imagine. All future emails from him go directly to the trash. Some people
  - marginalia_nu 4y ago
    Just because people tend to behave in an obnoxious way doesn't make it even an ounce more acceptable.
  - spillguard 4y ago
    > Linux evangelists were far more obnoxious when Linux was first making the rounds. Yes, absolutely. > This is just how tech works and how tech people tend to behave. I really think that that this old guard mentality needs to die out. Rudeness is protected in the industry because we normalize that it's... what, intrinsic to programming? But that just isn't true, and it's harmful to everyone in the field.
  - mumblemumble 4y ago
    I think you're attempting a reductio ad absurdum here, but, since your 2nd sentence isn't really true, you haven't achieved the "ad absurdum" bit. Back in the day, yes, the Linux community was indeed quite bothersome. That's why I fairly quickly switched to FreeBSD as my primary OS. I found I had a lot fewer toxic interactions in the FreeBSD community than I did the Linux one. In time, FreeBSD didn't really cut it for me any more, so I switched to OS X. The Mac community does have its incorrigible elements, too, but they are much easier to avoid than they are with Linux, where interacting with the community is a must in order to get help. Yes, these things do have implications for open source communities. Personally, I suspect that, all along, the biggest headwind for Linux on the desktop has actually been that the social environment surrounding Linux tends to alienate people who might otherwise have stuck around to help make it more successful.
  - andsoitis 4y ago
    > when Linux was first making the rounds Rust is already 12 years old.
  - bitwize 4y ago
    Read Aurynn Shaw's essays on "Contempt Culture". Tech people can, and need to, change.
  - naikrovek 4y ago
    that is why I won't use python and why just the mention of "Linux desktop" puts a sour taste in my mouth. feverish advocates detract from the thing they aim to augment, and yeah, the worst thing about anything on the internet is its community, by a wide margin.
  - mrtweetyhack 4y ago
- throwup 4y ago
  So you're avoiding a technology because of unrelated teenagers' internet comments. Is that any more useful than adopting a technology because of unrelated teenagers' internet comments?
  - mumblemumble 4y ago
    Both are entirely reasonable, especially if it's something you're doing in your free time. Internet toxicity can entirely suck the fun out of participating in a community, thereby defeating the purpose of participating in it. But, similarly, a really fun community can do the opposite. I used to participate in the Ruby community more for the people than anything else. I never actually loved the language all that much.
  - naikrovek 4y ago
    the behavior of advocates matters. the rust community can deal with caustic advocacy or they can do nothing. they've chosen to do nothing, from what I can tell. accordingly, I've chosen to stay away from that product and its community. this is not a crackpot point of view, this is the point of view of a sane person who realizes that his time on earth is finite and who has zero appetite for games.
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      This is completely wrong. You should never hold people responsible for the behavior of others whom they have no control over. What do you even want the Rust maintainers to do about it?
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > So you're avoiding a technology because of unrelated teenagers' internet comments. A) What makes you think it's a teenager? The internet makes even ordinary people act in ways they would not act IRL. B) It's completely reasonable to avoid something because you don't like the community. Comments like the quoted one in GP post are definitely not rare from the Rust community.
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  Rust really is a great replacement for C++, despite how oversold it is by the more enthusiastic elements of the community. I'd recommend trying it out with an open mind.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
zorgmonkey 4y ago
The timing of their POC being in 2018 makes me wonder if it was possibly a direct response to the boot ROM exploit disclosed by Kate Temkin in 2018 (https://www.ktemkin.com/faq-fusee-gelee/ https://www.ktemkin.com/faq-fusee-gelee/).

Traubenfuchs 4y ago

naikrovek 4y ago

commenters like that have turned me off of rust entirely and completely.

api 4y ago
You shouldn't use Linux then. Linux evangelists were far more obnoxious when Linux was first making the rounds. This is just how tech works and how tech people tend to behave.
- adimineman 4y ago
  :/
- TurboHaskal 4y ago
  Don't make me remember the Python evangelists back in the day when they were targeting Perl.
  - naikrovek 4y ago
    I remember those fools. those people are why I won't use python even today, 20 yrs or so later. if python was 10% as good as they claimed, it would be the most wonderful creation of mankind, past and future, by a factor of three.
    - Kon-Peki 4y ago
      LOL, I can still remember the python "enthusiast" who lived across the hall from me in the freshman dorm in 1996/97. He is forever etched in my brain. I ran into him at a bar in Indianapolis 10 years or so ago when our alma mater was in the Sweet Sixteen. Must have drunkenly passed along my email address. Because about a year ago, he sent me a link to an interview he had given about the new thing he was passionate about. I congratulated him and asked a few questions out of kindness. Yeah, the response was exactly what you could imagine. All future emails from him go directly to the trash. Some people
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
  Just because people tend to behave in an obnoxious way doesn't make it even an ounce more acceptable.
- spillguard 4y ago
  > Linux evangelists were far more obnoxious when Linux was first making the rounds. Yes, absolutely. > This is just how tech works and how tech people tend to behave. I really think that that this old guard mentality needs to die out. Rudeness is protected in the industry because we normalize that it's... what, intrinsic to programming? But that just isn't true, and it's harmful to everyone in the field.
- mumblemumble 4y ago
  I think you're attempting a reductio ad absurdum here, but, since your 2nd sentence isn't really true, you haven't achieved the "ad absurdum" bit. Back in the day, yes, the Linux community was indeed quite bothersome. That's why I fairly quickly switched to FreeBSD as my primary OS. I found I had a lot fewer toxic interactions in the FreeBSD community than I did the Linux one. In time, FreeBSD didn't really cut it for me any more, so I switched to OS X. The Mac community does have its incorrigible elements, too, but they are much easier to avoid than they are with Linux, where interacting with the community is a must in order to get help. Yes, these things do have implications for open source communities. Personally, I suspect that, all along, the biggest headwind for Linux on the desktop has actually been that the social environment surrounding Linux tends to alienate people who might otherwise have stuck around to help make it more successful.
- andsoitis 4y ago
  > when Linux was first making the rounds Rust is already 12 years old.
- bitwize 4y ago
  Read Aurynn Shaw's essays on "Contempt Culture". Tech people can, and need to, change.
- naikrovek 4y ago
  that is why I won't use python and why just the mention of "Linux desktop" puts a sour taste in my mouth. feverish advocates detract from the thing they aim to augment, and yeah, the worst thing about anything on the internet is its community, by a wide margin.
- mrtweetyhack 4y ago
throwup 4y ago
So you're avoiding a technology because of unrelated teenagers' internet comments. Is that any more useful than adopting a technology because of unrelated teenagers' internet comments?
- mumblemumble 4y ago
  Both are entirely reasonable, especially if it's something you're doing in your free time. Internet toxicity can entirely suck the fun out of participating in a community, thereby defeating the purpose of participating in it. But, similarly, a really fun community can do the opposite. I used to participate in the Ruby community more for the people than anything else. I never actually loved the language all that much.
- naikrovek 4y ago
  the behavior of advocates matters. the rust community can deal with caustic advocacy or they can do nothing. they've chosen to do nothing, from what I can tell. accordingly, I've chosen to stay away from that product and its community. this is not a crackpot point of view, this is the point of view of a sane person who realizes that his time on earth is finite and who has zero appetite for games.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    This is completely wrong. You should never hold people responsible for the behavior of others whom they have no control over. What do you even want the Rust maintainers to do about it?
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > So you're avoiding a technology because of unrelated teenagers' internet comments. A) What makes you think it's a teenager? The internet makes even ordinary people act in ways they would not act IRL. B) It's completely reasonable to avoid something because you don't like the community. Comments like the quoted one in GP post are definitely not rare from the Rust community.
School-Cotton 4y ago
Rust really is a great replacement for C++, despite how oversold it is by the more enthusiastic elements of the community. I'd recommend trying it out with an open mind.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

zorgmonkey 4y ago

The timing of their POC being in 2018 makes me wonder if it was possibly a direct response to the boot ROM exploit disclosed by Kate Temkin in 2018 (https://www.ktemkin.com/faq-fusee-gelee/ https://www.ktemkin.com/faq-fusee-gelee/).