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>We have a sort of bullshit industrial complex too of consultants and other nonsense jobs that come in and make projects take longer. Forego those "bullshit in

>We have a sort of bullshit industrial complex too of consultants and other nonsense jobs that come in and make projects take longer. Forego those "bullshit industrial complex" studies, and there'll be some environmental, safety or cost fuck-up. Outside observers will then get to comment derisively on lack of foresight or planning, so it's really a win-win for us. >It seems like there must be a way to go back to building stuff as fast as we could 100 years ago in the US. There is. Forego a lot of the building/safety code, cut corners, and optimize speed over all else. >In China they can still build that way today[0][1] in a way I find embarrassing and annoying. Imagine how embarrassing and annoying it must be for Chinese people to see the relatively sub-par quality of the end result. >How different would the world be if in 3 months SF build 19 giant skyscrapers full of apartments you would want to live in? I can almost guarantee it would not happen. They can build it, but it's not likely to be an apartment I would want to live in, at least long term. Don't get me wrong, there's certainly a middle-ground somewhere between the extremes you're talking about. However, when it comes to, say, transit, I'd much rather aim for a first-world country that builds "less slowly" and cheaper without compromising safety or quality, like Spain or the Netherlands, over a place like China, which may set the record for speed but won't be setting any records for quality or longevity of its infrastructure. (And I'd even say that's okay for China, they need it deployed quickly because they, until recently, were growing fast from a very low baseline.)

chii 4y ago
> Imagine how embarrassing and annoying it must be for Chinese people to see the relatively sub-par quality of the end result there's no evidence that infrastructure projects in china, built for 1/3 of the price of what it would cost in the US, is any less quality. In fact, things like highspeed rail is much higher quality, due to leap-frogging of technology!
- Tade0 4y ago
  Ever heard of tofu dreg buildings?
- patch_collector 4y ago
  This is anecdotal, but back when I was working in architecture (10ish years ago), I visited the principal of our Chinese sister firm in Beijing, and we walked around and talked about his experience as a native Chinese architect with experience working in the US. His greatest frustration was the lack of quality in the finished buildings he'd design. As he put it, the designs that Chinese firms were putting out were just as high quality as anything in the rest of the world, but the end result was always worse. It was largely procedural -- in the US, the architect is involved not only during the initial design phases, but throughout the project, and is responsible approving any changes and for certifying that the result matches the intent. In China, that's not the case -- they make a design, bundle it up, and then hand everything over the contractor. The contractor then makes whatever changes they want during the construction process, without any input from the architects. This means materials may get changed, the wrong construction methods may be used, etc, and no-one knows. From a distance, the building will look amazing, but the details will have been skimped on.
  - clairity 4y ago
    not keeping architects in the loop doesn't sound like that big of a problem, if it just affects the quality of the finish as noted. it'd be much more concerning if engineers weren't signing off on construction changes (which can happen here in the US, even with our bloated procedures).
    - patch_collector 4y ago
      The Architect of Record isn't just signing off on paint colors and finish quality, but on things like the seals around windows, flashing on roofing elements, fireproofing on the structural elements, and many more aspects of the building process. In the US, the vast majority of lawsuits around buildings are due to water infiltration, which is affected by these sorts of issues. The building may not collapse if the architect isn't reviewing it, but the walls and roof might. That said, I'm not certain that engineers are in a different situation. Judging by videos I've seen of collapsing buildings and other issues, I wouldn't be surprised if structural, electrical, plumbing, and other engineers also hand over their designs in the beginning, and then leave it to the developer / contractor to interpret them and 'value-engineer' as they see fit.
stoppingby 4y ago
> Imagine how embarrassing and annoying it must be for Chinese people to see the relatively sub-par quality of the end result. That’s honestly just cope. China has the best rail network in the world by far and there’s really nothing even close to what they’ve accomplished in about 15 years. In the time the US has been twiddling their thumbs planning and throwing billions at contractors to consider high speed rail and scams like hyper loop, China went from 0 miles of high speed rail to thousands. There’s a lot of cruft in construction in the US and it’s impossible to deny. I lived near a highway that was being repaired for years. It was ongoing before I moved to that city and apparently only finished after I moved out 5 years later. Thorough environmental checks for building dams, okay. But just build a goddamn road—especially when all you’re doing is fixing what’s there. Quit selling it out to your biggest donor/lowest bidder. Pay someone who delivers results with a record to back it up even if the initial budget looks higher. Infrastructure is like a pair of boots. Pay a little extra now and you’ll quickly realize why it’s good you didn’t cheap out.
- missedthecue 4y ago
  I agree. I feel like a lot of people's perception of China was formed in 1995 and has not been revised since. I hear it all the time online. Their buildings suck and are liable to collapse at any second. Their infrastructure sucks. They can only manufacture junk, and can only do it poorly. They have zero initiative and can only rip off western tech and innovation, etc... It's just not true anymore.
  - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
    Indeed. The Chinese high-speed rail network transports nearly 2 billion passengers a year. There have been two fatal accidents in its entire history, in 2011 and 2022, with a total of 48 deaths. That safety record is equivalent to commercial aviation in the US.
    - missedthecue 4y ago
      Wondered if you are actually Jim Chanos, but he's a China bear isn't he.
lifeformed 4y ago
Tokyo builds for half the cost and the quality and safety is light years ahead of NYC results.
system16 4y ago
> Imagine how embarrassing and annoying it must be for Chinese people to see the relatively sub-par quality of the end result. While this may be true for many shady developer-led real estate projects, it's absolutely not the case for the country's major infrastructure projects like airports, subways, high speed rail, highways, bridges, dams, etc. They rival or surpass anything you will see in the west in scope and quality, and built in a fraction of the time.
thatfrenchguy 4y ago
> Forego those "bullshit industrial complex" studies, and there'll be some environmental, safety or cost fuck-up. Outside observers will then get to comment derisively on lack of foresight or planning, so it's really a win-win for us. I mean, just look at any other developed country like France and look at how they can still build things at a reasonable pace while doing environmental studies. Everyone knows that environmental studies in the US are insane, you just have to read one to be convinced of it.
- thedudeabides5 4y ago
  The way different countries deal with Eminent Domain is a big reason here. Imagine all the subways that have to snuck into existing commercial and residential spaces in a way that doesn't disturb the existing tenants? https://www.justice.gov/enrd/history-federal-use-eminent-domain https://www.justice.gov/enrd/history-federal-use-eminent-dom... In China they just move everyone https://owlcation.com/humanities/Nail-Houses https://owlcation.com/humanities/Nail-Houses
panick21_ 4y ago
> . They can build it, but it's not likely to be an apartment I would want to live in, at least long term. So what? Are you the only person that matters? How about the intern at tech company. How about the guy that cleans the offices. Should the have to rent a house 2h away and then be forced to buy an old shitty polluting car, wasting 5h of their life and polluting the whole area instead? Is that a better result. And of course if you do it correct and you don't just build dumb towers, you can pretty easly build nice high density neighborhoods where people wont need a car and you can get density not unlike huge skyscrapers.
- kspacewalk2 4y ago
  >So what? Are you the only person that matters? How about the intern at tech company. How about the guy that cleans the offices. Yes, they too deserve safe accommodations. >Should the have to rent a house 2h away and then be forced to buy an old shitty polluting car, wasting 5h of their life and polluting the whole area instead? The issue in California is not at all that apartment buildings take too long to construct due to pesky safety and building codes. The issue is that NIMBYs prevent them from being constructed at all. >And of course if you do it correct and you don't just build dumb towers, you can pretty easly build nice high density neighborhoods where people wont need a car and you can get density not unlike huge skyscrapers. So you agree with me. Didn't sound like it at first, so it's a bit confusing.

chii 4y ago

> Imagine how embarrassing and annoying it must be for Chinese people to see the relatively sub-par quality of the end result there's no evidence that infrastructure projects in china, built for 1/3 of the price of what it would cost in the US, is any less quality. In fact, things like highspeed rail is much higher quality, due to leap-frogging of technology!

Tade0 4y ago
Ever heard of tofu dreg buildings?
patch_collector 4y ago
This is anecdotal, but back when I was working in architecture (10ish years ago), I visited the principal of our Chinese sister firm in Beijing, and we walked around and talked about his experience as a native Chinese architect with experience working in the US. His greatest frustration was the lack of quality in the finished buildings he'd design. As he put it, the designs that Chinese firms were putting out were just as high quality as anything in the rest of the world, but the end result was always worse. It was largely procedural -- in the US, the architect is involved not only during the initial design phases, but throughout the project, and is responsible approving any changes and for certifying that the result matches the intent. In China, that's not the case -- they make a design, bundle it up, and then hand everything over the contractor. The contractor then makes whatever changes they want during the construction process, without any input from the architects. This means materials may get changed, the wrong construction methods may be used, etc, and no-one knows. From a distance, the building will look amazing, but the details will have been skimped on.
- clairity 4y ago
  not keeping architects in the loop doesn't sound like that big of a problem, if it just affects the quality of the finish as noted. it'd be much more concerning if engineers weren't signing off on construction changes (which can happen here in the US, even with our bloated procedures).
  - patch_collector 4y ago
    The Architect of Record isn't just signing off on paint colors and finish quality, but on things like the seals around windows, flashing on roofing elements, fireproofing on the structural elements, and many more aspects of the building process. In the US, the vast majority of lawsuits around buildings are due to water infiltration, which is affected by these sorts of issues. The building may not collapse if the architect isn't reviewing it, but the walls and roof might. That said, I'm not certain that engineers are in a different situation. Judging by videos I've seen of collapsing buildings and other issues, I wouldn't be surprised if structural, electrical, plumbing, and other engineers also hand over their designs in the beginning, and then leave it to the developer / contractor to interpret them and 'value-engineer' as they see fit.

stoppingby 4y ago

> Imagine how embarrassing and annoying it must be for Chinese people to see the relatively sub-par quality of the end result. That’s honestly just cope. China has the best rail network in the world by far and there’s really nothing even close to what they’ve accomplished in about 15 years. In the time the US has been twiddling their thumbs planning and throwing billions at contractors to consider high speed rail and scams like hyper loop, China went from 0 miles of high speed rail to thousands. There’s a lot of cruft in construction in the US and it’s impossible to deny. I lived near a highway that was being repaired for years. It was ongoing before I moved to that city and apparently only finished after I moved out 5 years later. Thorough environmental checks for building dams, okay. But just build a goddamn road—especially when all you’re doing is fixing what’s there. Quit selling it out to your biggest donor/lowest bidder. Pay someone who delivers results with a record to back it up even if the initial budget looks higher. Infrastructure is like a pair of boots. Pay a little extra now and you’ll quickly realize why it’s good you didn’t cheap out.

missedthecue 4y ago
I agree. I feel like a lot of people's perception of China was formed in 1995 and has not been revised since. I hear it all the time online. Their buildings suck and are liable to collapse at any second. Their infrastructure sucks. They can only manufacture junk, and can only do it poorly. They have zero initiative and can only rip off western tech and innovation, etc... It's just not true anymore.
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  Indeed. The Chinese high-speed rail network transports nearly 2 billion passengers a year. There have been two fatal accidents in its entire history, in 2011 and 2022, with a total of 48 deaths. That safety record is equivalent to commercial aviation in the US.
  - missedthecue 4y ago
    Wondered if you are actually Jim Chanos, but he's a China bear isn't he.

lifeformed 4y ago

Tokyo builds for half the cost and the quality and safety is light years ahead of NYC results.

system16 4y ago

> Imagine how embarrassing and annoying it must be for Chinese people to see the relatively sub-par quality of the end result. While this may be true for many shady developer-led real estate projects, it's absolutely not the case for the country's major infrastructure projects like airports, subways, high speed rail, highways, bridges, dams, etc. They rival or surpass anything you will see in the west in scope and quality, and built in a fraction of the time.

thatfrenchguy 4y ago

> Forego those "bullshit industrial complex" studies, and there'll be some environmental, safety or cost fuck-up. Outside observers will then get to comment derisively on lack of foresight or planning, so it's really a win-win for us. I mean, just look at any other developed country like France and look at how they can still build things at a reasonable pace while doing environmental studies. Everyone knows that environmental studies in the US are insane, you just have to read one to be convinced of it.

thedudeabides5 4y ago
The way different countries deal with Eminent Domain is a big reason here. Imagine all the subways that have to snuck into existing commercial and residential spaces in a way that doesn't disturb the existing tenants? https://www.justice.gov/enrd/history-federal-use-eminent-domain https://www.justice.gov/enrd/history-federal-use-eminent-dom... In China they just move everyone https://owlcation.com/humanities/Nail-Houses https://owlcation.com/humanities/Nail-Houses

panick21_ 4y ago

> . They can build it, but it's not likely to be an apartment I would want to live in, at least long term. So what? Are you the only person that matters? How about the intern at tech company. How about the guy that cleans the offices. Should the have to rent a house 2h away and then be forced to buy an old shitty polluting car, wasting 5h of their life and polluting the whole area instead? Is that a better result. And of course if you do it correct and you don't just build dumb towers, you can pretty easly build nice high density neighborhoods where people wont need a car and you can get density not unlike huge skyscrapers.

kspacewalk2 4y ago
>So what? Are you the only person that matters? How about the intern at tech company. How about the guy that cleans the offices. Yes, they too deserve safe accommodations. >Should the have to rent a house 2h away and then be forced to buy an old shitty polluting car, wasting 5h of their life and polluting the whole area instead? The issue in California is not at all that apartment buildings take too long to construct due to pesky safety and building codes. The issue is that NIMBYs prevent them from being constructed at all. >And of course if you do it correct and you don't just build dumb towers, you can pretty easly build nice high density neighborhoods where people wont need a car and you can get density not unlike huge skyscrapers. So you agree with me. Didn't sound like it at first, so it's a bit confusing.