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The reasoning is quite sound, yes, but it doesn't consider the long term implications. No one outside of the USA is using iMessage and they are one regulation a
by mrtksn 4y ago
The reasoning is quite sound, yes, but it doesn't consider the long term implications. No one outside of the USA is using iMessage and they are one regulation away from losing it in the USA too. Also, outside of the USA if they piss off Mark Zuckerberg enough they can lose the rest of the world because who would want a phone that doesn't have WhatsApp?
It also demonstrates the harm with these lock-in strategies very well. They are concerned that their product wouldn't be compelling enough for people to buy it.
Wouldn't be better if they owned the messaging platform and provide the full experience for iOS due to the fact that they control the device? Owning the platform would have given them also the ability to get revenue from non-Apple users through things like payments and other services that can be integrated into the app.
In its current situation, it might be the case that Apple has won the battle but might end up losing the war.
- onethought 4y agoWhy is WhatsApp special? iMessages is used a lot outside US. Why is there a “messenger war”? Like what’s the end game? Why do you want people using your free messages product? Data? But e2e encryption and privacy are primary features… I don’t get it
- remus 4y ago> Why is there a “messenger war”? Like what’s the end game? Why do you want people using your free messages product? Data? But e2e encryption and privacy are primary features… I don’t get it Messenger apps have powerful network effects. Imagine all your friends are on iPhone and use iMessage, if you're the only android user in that circle you're getting a degraded experience so there's a strong incentive to move to iphone which means more sales for apple.
- onethought 4y agoSo that makes sense for Apple. But it doesn't make sense for literally every other messenger app. Why do they bother existing? (i.e 1 billion people use Messenger X, is the game plan that some one else with an actual business model wants those billion users so they buy it... so Messenger apps are a marketing channel?)
- mainfield 4y agoFor WhatsApp/Facebook the business model is: access to your contacts
- winnie_ua 4y agoAnd I am so confused, that nobody is bothered with it, and so many users of whatsapp. I really distrust Signal for it forcing to add contacts only by phone, not hy sone user ids/nick-names
- dwaite 4y agoAt first messaging was a draw to have people use the portal (AOL, ICQ, MSN). Later, they tried to sell the apps as another banner slot. The more recent bout has their own services in messaging itself; bots to provide enterprise-specific functions to Slack, payment and marketplace tie-ins to Messenger.
- scarface74 4y ago> Also, outside of the USA if they piss off Mark Zuckerberg enough they can lose the rest of the world because who would want a phone that doesn't have WhatsApp? In the US, Facebook admitted that they saw billions in revenue shortfalls because of Apple’s new prompt that makes user tracking opt in. Besides, Facebook has already lost 70% of its value. Right now, Facebook is worth 240 billion. Apple is worth 2.2 trillion. Facebook is not exactly operating from a position of strength to throw away its most affluent customers.
- mrtksn 4y agoMark Zuckerberg is betting the farm on VR, so he clearly choose to go to another way instead of clashing with Apple.
- nextlevelwizard 4y ago>No one outside of the USA is using iMessage Why should I continue reading rest when you already made insane claim based on nothing. Or have I suddenly been teleported to USA? I primarily use iMessage when I'm sending messages with my phone. I have only one contact that uses Whatsapp.
- pverghese 4y agoNeither Europe or Asia use iMessage, they use Whatsapp. Don't know which part of the world youve been to, but more than 70% of the possible iPhone population doesn't use iMessage. The rest of the world doesn't have the SMS problem that the US has.
- stoppingby 4y agoNot sure where you’re talking about in Asia. Vietnam uses Zalo, China has Wechat, Japan has Line, Korea has Kakaotalk, Thailand I think is Line as well. I think the average tech-aware person in at least East Asia doesn’t know what WhatsApp even is.
- ulfw 4y agoThere is no 'Asia'. Every country is unique. Hong Kong mostly uses Whatsapp (though some Telegram and Wechat as well), Singapore uses Whatsapp a lot, Turkey uses Whatsapp, Indonesia too...
- Nitrolo 4y agoAs a non American, what problem does the US have with SMS? I can confirm essentially no one in western Europe uses iMessage. I've seen people use FaceTime to call friends, but I've yet to even see someone open the iMessage app in person.
- mrtksn 4y agoYep. Also the iMessage&SMS being in the same place makes the app very prone to spam. I have nothing more than 2FA codes and marketing spam in my iMessage app because the iMessage app is actually integrated with SMS and is called Messages. I use facetime quite a lot though, because it works better than everything else.
- checkyoursudo 4y agoI don't see more people being loyal to WhatsApp than they are to their iPhones. Also, having lived in 2 different countries in EU, I have never used WhatsApp. Only iMessage, Signal, and SMS.
- mrtksn 4y agoPeople are loyal to theır friends, not the apps. If the people you want to talk to are not all on iMessage they you don't use iMessage. If in EU you manage not to use something else than iMessage the you are in a bubble because most people in EU use Android. You somehow managed to have an iPhone bubble but your situation is not the rule but the exception.
- xcambar 4y agoAnother data point from Europe: messaging apps are scattered by demographics, not location. By decreasing age: SMS Whatsapp Signal ? (I'm old enough I don't know what younglings use these days) iMessage has a more tribal spread due to its platform specifics. Note: I have zero data to back it up, so please correct me if you have data.
- anikom15 4y agoRationally, it doesn’t make sense to buy a new phone for a free app.
- roenxi 4y ago> ...and they are one regulation away from losing it... More than likely, but the government is never going to legislate that companies use a technically excellent messaging product. Governments have the strongest incentives to cripple messaging: 1) Government pressure degrades private & secure messaging, because privacy can be used for criminal activity and tax evasion. 2) The US government has the worlds most sophisticated spy network and is constantly looking for ways to get involved in people's communications. 3) The US government has generally identified "misinformation" to be anything the current administration doesn't like. Presently only the right wing is aware of this fact, but I know the left wing can understand the point because they had figured this out under Trump. Apple's relative market share and strategy is at best a secondary factor, the US government will regulate first and foremost get involved in messaging to cripple the security of the protocols being used.
- prashantsengar 4y ago> Also, outside of the USA if they piss off Mark Zuckerberg enough they can lose the rest of the world If a few companies piss-off each other enough, we might start seeing open protocols for communication
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y agoThat would be full circle. I remember back then when Jabber was popular, most competitors offered gateways (similar to the IRC-Slack gateway Slack closed recently) so that people who used the popular open protocol would help spreading their closed variant. After a few years they would shut it down. But people never learn and I think the history would soon repeat itself.
- bjohnson225 4y ago> outside of the USA if they piss off Mark Zuckerberg enough they can lose the rest of the world because who would want a phone that doesn't have WhatsApp? We use WhatsApp by default because of the network effects. FB have no power over Apple here because removing it from iPhones would kill the only reason people use it. The switch to (most likely) Telegram would happen overnight.
- mrtksn 4y agoOkay, what if FB makes WhatsApp slow, buggy and lacking features instead? Are the Android users be willing to switch to other messenger platforms for the comfort of the iPhone users or are the iPhone users consider the messaging quality just as if they consider camera quality when purchasing a new phone? I agree that the messaging platforms are not all powerful but they do wield significant power. iPhone is famously good for social media because Instagram and Snapchat camera integration sucked and that was something people consider when buying a new phone. So there must be a point where switching to a different phone to improve communications is less painful than making all your social circle switch platform for you.
- andreilys 4y agoI only have one or two friends who have an Android, the rest are all iPhone. Only time I use WhatsApp is when I’m traveling overseas.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- yumraj 4y ago> Also, outside of the USA if they piss off Mark Zuckerberg enough they can lose the rest of the world because who would want a phone that doesn't have WhatsApp? That is a fantastic point, had never though along those lines. It’d be very interesting to explore if people in, say India, where everyone uses WhatsApp - in that scenario will people drop iPhone, a status symbol, or WhatsApp, a somewhat necessary tool. I don’t think no one knows today and no one wants to find out, risks are too high. Moreover, in that case it is possible that governments might step in.
- tinus_hn 4y agoIf Facebook messes up WhatsApp people will move to Snapchat instead, the groups, the network and the momentum already exist. People really aren’t going to leave iOS for WhatsApp. That would never happen though because Facebook has enough problems if its own without picking a very risky fight with Apple.
- yumraj 4y agoYou don't realize how pervasive WhatsApp is in India and how much of a premium product iPhone is there. You may be right, but I doubt it is going to be that simple. I have no idea what all Snapchat offers (never used/installed it). But, FWIW, I think Signal or Telegram have better odds of succeeding in India than Snapchat, but who knows.
- SergeAx 4y agoSo there's no sense in fighting Apple in India because they lost there anyway, iOS penetration there is negligible, right?
- bombolo 4y agoYou think 20-50 million people would change app to accommodate 50k people? Not going to happen.
- winnie_ua 4y ago> because who would want a phone that doesn't have WhatsApp? Me! I hate whatsapp ui. And not having desktop app. Tend to use Telegram, and Viber as last resort, to talk with elderly family and with businesses(when ordering something online). Vibr sucks as well, but not as much as WA.
- nephanth 4y agoBtw I never understood the reason for imessage being so popular in the US I remember in France when it was introduced, most phone plans had free SMS, but data was paid (and expensive), so people around me would disable it on their iphones How come that effect didn't happen in the US?