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This is really promising. But I usually sense some pessimism from the EV crowd about the viability of Hydrogen. I personally hope for a Hydrogen future.

by jp0d 4y ago

palata 4y ago
IMO because hydrogen is less efficient (by a factor of two, I believe) than using the electricity directly. So given that we are going to have less energy in the future (because fossil fuels are not unlimited, e.g. we passed the production peak of conventional oil back in 2008), then we should use it wisely. And we need hydrogen for other applications (steel, methanol, fertilisers), so probably we should keep it for those.
- gonzo41 4y ago
  We'll be making hydrogen from saltwater with sunlight and wind energy in ~15 years or less. There's a race to own these industries right now.
  - smt88 4y ago
    The same sunlight and wind energy could be used directly as electricity in homes and EV batteries. There is a significant cost to storing the energy as hydrogen, and there's no benefit.
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      Installing battery banks to last longer and longer has an increasing cost, so you start to run out of batteries to fill during high production times. At a certain point hydrogen should get cheaper per watt to soak up production.
    - gonzo41 4y ago
      For countries that import LNG as source of power now, there's a future in shipping h2 as ammonia and converting it to hydrogen on the other end. Places with lots and sun, lots of ocean and existing LNG infrastructure are in a good place to assist in this transformation.
- jp0d 4y ago
  You're probably right about the currently known processes. But there are companies working on chemical engineering processes that are more efficient. Here is one : https://hazer.wpmudev.host/about/#hazerprocess https://hazer.wpmudev.host/about/#hazerprocess
  - palata 4y ago
    The fact is that you need energy to produce hydrogen, and then car engines are less efficient with hydrogen than with electricity. And the other points remain: we need hydrogen in other important fields (probably more important than cars, right?), so we should keep it there. If we get more efficient at producing hydrogen for those applications, that's good. No need to add cars on top.
sidibe 4y ago
I think it's interesting to see how much most people around here and reddit are convinced hydrogen personal vehicles won't work out while at the same time the largest carmaker seems very much to believe it will be the future.
- XorNot 4y ago
  Hydrogen inherits a lot of infrastructure problems without the advantages of batteries. Charging an EV at home is slow, but it's a reliable fallback you can use all the time. With no EV infrastructure, I could happily own one today. With no hydrogen infrastructure...I'm just stuck. There's no path forward at the moment to refueling with H2 at home.
  - fomine3 4y ago
    For who can't have home/parking charger, it's not happy to own EV today, though no hydrogen station is far more problem.
- BLKNSLVR 4y ago
  > the largest carmaker seems very much to believe it will be the future Tesla are arguably a long way ahead on electric cars, so it would make sense for the, currently, largest carmaker to be touting something else. It maintains a 'normal' that's more similar to the status quo than electric cars, and being the largest carmaker, change would not be something they'd like to encourage. This being closer to the current status quo could help it greatly if fossil fuel logistics and infrastructure could be minimally re-worked to cater to hydrogen. It also could end being stupidly fiercely politically aligned where democrats are all supporting and driving electric and republicans hydrogen.
  - maxerickson 4y ago
    Don't most of the major automakers electric vehicles compare reasonably to Tesla? Like Tesla likely has better costs on their batteries, but that doesn't represent a whole lot when the other automakers have only recently started to invest in that production. And for example, the F-150 Lighting isn't at huge volume, but it's more available than ye olde Cybertruck.

This is really promising. But I usually sense some pessimism from the EV crowd about the viability of Hydrogen. I personally hope for a Hydrogen future.

by jp0d 4y ago

This is really promising. But I usually sense some pessimism from the EV crowd about the viability of Hydrogen. I personally hope for a Hydrogen future.

palata 4y ago

IMO because hydrogen is less efficient (by a factor of two, I believe) than using the electricity directly. So given that we are going to have less energy in the future (because fossil fuels are not unlimited, e.g. we passed the production peak of conventional oil back in 2008), then we should use it wisely. And we need hydrogen for other applications (steel, methanol, fertilisers), so probably we should keep it for those.

gonzo41 4y ago
We'll be making hydrogen from saltwater with sunlight and wind energy in ~15 years or less. There's a race to own these industries right now.
- smt88 4y ago
  The same sunlight and wind energy could be used directly as electricity in homes and EV batteries. There is a significant cost to storing the energy as hydrogen, and there's no benefit.
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    Installing battery banks to last longer and longer has an increasing cost, so you start to run out of batteries to fill during high production times. At a certain point hydrogen should get cheaper per watt to soak up production.
  - gonzo41 4y ago
    For countries that import LNG as source of power now, there's a future in shipping h2 as ammonia and converting it to hydrogen on the other end. Places with lots and sun, lots of ocean and existing LNG infrastructure are in a good place to assist in this transformation.
jp0d 4y ago
You're probably right about the currently known processes. But there are companies working on chemical engineering processes that are more efficient. Here is one : https://hazer.wpmudev.host/about/#hazerprocess https://hazer.wpmudev.host/about/#hazerprocess
- palata 4y ago
  The fact is that you need energy to produce hydrogen, and then car engines are less efficient with hydrogen than with electricity. And the other points remain: we need hydrogen in other important fields (probably more important than cars, right?), so we should keep it there. If we get more efficient at producing hydrogen for those applications, that's good. No need to add cars on top.

sidibe 4y ago

I think it's interesting to see how much most people around here and reddit are convinced hydrogen personal vehicles won't work out while at the same time the largest carmaker seems very much to believe it will be the future.

XorNot 4y ago
Hydrogen inherits a lot of infrastructure problems without the advantages of batteries. Charging an EV at home is slow, but it's a reliable fallback you can use all the time. With no EV infrastructure, I could happily own one today. With no hydrogen infrastructure...I'm just stuck. There's no path forward at the moment to refueling with H2 at home.
- fomine3 4y ago
  For who can't have home/parking charger, it's not happy to own EV today, though no hydrogen station is far more problem.
BLKNSLVR 4y ago
> the largest carmaker seems very much to believe it will be the future Tesla are arguably a long way ahead on electric cars, so it would make sense for the, currently, largest carmaker to be touting something else. It maintains a 'normal' that's more similar to the status quo than electric cars, and being the largest carmaker, change would not be something they'd like to encourage. This being closer to the current status quo could help it greatly if fossil fuel logistics and infrastructure could be minimally re-worked to cater to hydrogen. It also could end being stupidly fiercely politically aligned where democrats are all supporting and driving electric and republicans hydrogen.
- maxerickson 4y ago
  Don't most of the major automakers electric vehicles compare reasonably to Tesla? Like Tesla likely has better costs on their batteries, but that doesn't represent a whole lot when the other automakers have only recently started to invest in that production. And for example, the F-150 Lighting isn't at huge volume, but it's more available than ye olde Cybertruck.