5 ms·

Imo it is the bloated general education requirements, squeezing as much money from students as possible. It should only take 2 years to earn a bachelor’s. I bel

Imo it is the bloated general education requirements, squeezing as much money from students as possible. It should only take 2 years to earn a bachelor’s. I believe if these classes were optional, they would not survive in the curriculum. University should not be in the business of propping up classes that no one wants, or professors who don’t have classes to teach.

notacoward 4y ago
> It should only take 2 years to earn a bachelor’s Only if you assume that the purpose of a bachelor's is to provide job training in one specific profession. Not so much if you believe in the value of a well-rounded education, for people who are likely to change careers multiple times, maybe also be civic leaders, etc. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the debate between these two visions has been going on for centuries and IMO it's not very useful to assume one answer (especially without recognizing the assumption as such).
- feet 4y ago
  Good thing 2 year associates and vocational training is a thing. Is the OP complaining that bachelors are not those?
  - School-Cotton 4y ago
    No. They’re complaining that they’re not a deep study of a particular academic field, like they are in most countries.
- ericmcer 4y ago
  I thought elementary/middle/high school was for general purpose and moral education while college was for specialization. I guess you could argue that the amount of general purpose knowledge you need nowadays has increased but I agree with OP that ~50% of your college education being unrelated to your specialization seems unnecessary.
  - birdyrooster 4y ago
    It's the reason I could never finish my degree. Imagine getting motivated to do something you know is a waste of your time for your given goal. It was a total mismatch of what I needed versus what the institution provided. ADHD makes this torture to endure.
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  Somehow practically every country besides the US manages to give people a general education in secondary school, and reserves universities for deep study of one subject. Consequently, their bachelors degrees usually take less time. Do you think university graduates in France, for example, are less “well-rounded” than those in the US?
  - lazyasciiart 4y ago
    With their mandatory PE through college? How could they be?!
  - mattkrause 4y ago
    A little bit? It's hard to totally dissociate this from second-language issues, but I've noticed that international science grad students sometimes struggle to organize their writing, often in ways that go beyond grammar/vocab. I didn't realize this at the time, but writing essays on (e.g.,) feminism in The Canterbury Tales are really just exercises in putting together a cogent argument. Those skills transfer over to project proposals and design docs too. In a similar vein, European PhDs are also laser-focused on one topic so that they can be finished in 3-4 years. I think there's a pretty widespread sense that many need to spend a little longer as a postdoc to "round" out vs. Americans with slower PhDs.
- marmetio 4y ago
  That argument assumes that only one program option should be available. It's a false dichotomy.
bsder 4y ago
> It should only take 2 years to earn a bachelor’s. In STEM? Certainly not. Calculus I/II/III(vector)/IV(linera algebra) Physics I/II Chem I/II That's two whole semesters just getting the basics. You've only got 8 courses left. In EE, that gets you: Circuits I/II, Digital I, Data Structures I, Computer Arch I, Signals & Systems, Electrostatics, Electrodynamics, You're out of courses, and you haven't even gotten outside of the minimal major basics--and no labs either.
- marmetio 4y ago
  I think it should be possible. First year is general math and science. Many people earn some of those credits in high school, so it's already effectively on an as-needed basis. Second and third year are the core engineering curriculum. At that point, you have all the specific course prerequisites to start a master's program. Fourth year is a capstone project. You could do that over a summer in the second calendar year. The electives are redundant if you're going to do a master's. General education requirement is also redundant with high school, and is about a semester's worth of classes. So depending on your first year preparation needs, it could be as little as two calendar years. Assuming the program requirements are reformed.
vehemenz 4y ago
You don't know what you don't know. A big part of education is studying what you don't necessarily want because it helps inform your intellectual interests.
- brnaftr361 4y ago
  Have you ever been on YouTube?
  - vehemenz 4y ago
    Yes. I assume there is a point here, but you're not being very forthcoming about it. Is your suggestion that YouTube could function as a way to audit potential college courses? Good idea, except you would already need to know what you're looking for to not be captured by the recommendation algorithm.
    - brnaftr361 4y ago
      Not at all, you can delve into a huge pool of educational content rife with opportunities for self-edifying tangents. You could do the same on Audible. Or at a book store (or on library genesis). I picked up Taleb, heard about Mandelbrot, learned about fractals (a complement to my hobby, 3D), all because I wanted to trade some puts because I saw an opportunity in 2020 while working as a janitor - not a fucking thing to do with with some slovenly professor whose class I'm forced to occupy disinterestedly while spending large sums to listen to him parrot the chapter contents read from a slide for the third time of the day. We haven't been trapped in a world where the only access to the arcane and the esoteric is held in hand copied, gilded manuscripts, we've even largely transcended the need for libraries. "Higher education" is, at best, internally conflicted with two very different motives. On one hand it is the arbiter of the gates of the middle class. On the other it operates under the pretense of being the authority of intellect. Frankly my experience with the latter half is a joke, a mixed bag of disinterested people that are just there for the class, some that are disinterested in education in general, some egregiously incompetent at the coursework, and the very few (often none) who are passionate about it. This isn't uniquely on the side of the students, but that of the pedagogues as well. And it is contagious. If anything I'd be willing to bet that it does just enough trauma to people that they put a terminal end to their curiosities. Anyways, I don't agree, I think the old approach is wrong, I expect it's harmful from the many anecdotes I have. I think it's one of the many coats of lacquer varnishing the piles of shit that these institutions represent to ensure their continuity, and justify their ability to arbitrate so much of the world around us.

notacoward 4y ago

> It should only take 2 years to earn a bachelor’s Only if you assume that the purpose of a bachelor's is to provide job training in one specific profession. Not so much if you believe in the value of a well-rounded education, for people who are likely to change careers multiple times, maybe also be civic leaders, etc. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the debate between these two visions has been going on for centuries and IMO it's not very useful to assume one answer (especially without recognizing the assumption as such).

feet 4y ago
Good thing 2 year associates and vocational training is a thing. Is the OP complaining that bachelors are not those?
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  No. They’re complaining that they’re not a deep study of a particular academic field, like they are in most countries.
ericmcer 4y ago
I thought elementary/middle/high school was for general purpose and moral education while college was for specialization. I guess you could argue that the amount of general purpose knowledge you need nowadays has increased but I agree with OP that ~50% of your college education being unrelated to your specialization seems unnecessary.
- birdyrooster 4y ago
  It's the reason I could never finish my degree. Imagine getting motivated to do something you know is a waste of your time for your given goal. It was a total mismatch of what I needed versus what the institution provided. ADHD makes this torture to endure.
School-Cotton 4y ago
Somehow practically every country besides the US manages to give people a general education in secondary school, and reserves universities for deep study of one subject. Consequently, their bachelors degrees usually take less time. Do you think university graduates in France, for example, are less “well-rounded” than those in the US?
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  With their mandatory PE through college? How could they be?!
- mattkrause 4y ago
  A little bit? It's hard to totally dissociate this from second-language issues, but I've noticed that international science grad students sometimes struggle to organize their writing, often in ways that go beyond grammar/vocab. I didn't realize this at the time, but writing essays on (e.g.,) feminism in The Canterbury Tales are really just exercises in putting together a cogent argument. Those skills transfer over to project proposals and design docs too. In a similar vein, European PhDs are also laser-focused on one topic so that they can be finished in 3-4 years. I think there's a pretty widespread sense that many need to spend a little longer as a postdoc to "round" out vs. Americans with slower PhDs.
marmetio 4y ago
That argument assumes that only one program option should be available. It's a false dichotomy.

bsder 4y ago

> It should only take 2 years to earn a bachelor’s. In STEM? Certainly not. Calculus I/II/III(vector)/IV(linera algebra) Physics I/II Chem I/II That's two whole semesters just getting the basics. You've only got 8 courses left. In EE, that gets you: Circuits I/II, Digital I, Data Structures I, Computer Arch I, Signals & Systems, Electrostatics, Electrodynamics, You're out of courses, and you haven't even gotten outside of the minimal major basics--and no labs either.

marmetio 4y ago
I think it should be possible. First year is general math and science. Many people earn some of those credits in high school, so it's already effectively on an as-needed basis. Second and third year are the core engineering curriculum. At that point, you have all the specific course prerequisites to start a master's program. Fourth year is a capstone project. You could do that over a summer in the second calendar year. The electives are redundant if you're going to do a master's. General education requirement is also redundant with high school, and is about a semester's worth of classes. So depending on your first year preparation needs, it could be as little as two calendar years. Assuming the program requirements are reformed.

vehemenz 4y ago

You don't know what you don't know. A big part of education is studying what you don't necessarily want because it helps inform your intellectual interests.

brnaftr361 4y ago
Have you ever been on YouTube?
- vehemenz 4y ago
  Yes. I assume there is a point here, but you're not being very forthcoming about it. Is your suggestion that YouTube could function as a way to audit potential college courses? Good idea, except you would already need to know what you're looking for to not be captured by the recommendation algorithm.
  - brnaftr361 4y ago
    Not at all, you can delve into a huge pool of educational content rife with opportunities for self-edifying tangents. You could do the same on Audible. Or at a book store (or on library genesis). I picked up Taleb, heard about Mandelbrot, learned about fractals (a complement to my hobby, 3D), all because I wanted to trade some puts because I saw an opportunity in 2020 while working as a janitor - not a fucking thing to do with with some slovenly professor whose class I'm forced to occupy disinterestedly while spending large sums to listen to him parrot the chapter contents read from a slide for the third time of the day. We haven't been trapped in a world where the only access to the arcane and the esoteric is held in hand copied, gilded manuscripts, we've even largely transcended the need for libraries. "Higher education" is, at best, internally conflicted with two very different motives. On one hand it is the arbiter of the gates of the middle class. On the other it operates under the pretense of being the authority of intellect. Frankly my experience with the latter half is a joke, a mixed bag of disinterested people that are just there for the class, some that are disinterested in education in general, some egregiously incompetent at the coursework, and the very few (often none) who are passionate about it. This isn't uniquely on the side of the students, but that of the pedagogues as well. And it is contagious. If anything I'd be willing to bet that it does just enough trauma to people that they put a terminal end to their curiosities. Anyways, I don't agree, I think the old approach is wrong, I expect it's harmful from the many anecdotes I have. I think it's one of the many coats of lacquer varnishing the piles of shit that these institutions represent to ensure their continuity, and justify their ability to arbitrate so much of the world around us.