11 ms·

Are Modern Bicycles the End of DIY Maintenance?

38 points by cainxinth 4y ago

Finnucane 4y ago
At least it is still the case that if my bike needs something beyond my skill/toolset, I can go to any good bike shop in my area. I’m not dependent on the manufacturer.
fiftyacorn 4y ago
The issue isnt just maintenance - its a lot of specialist parts will have a shelf life of 5-10 years then you will be lucky to find them. An example being with custom headsets on frames - you'll not get a replacement and the frame will be end of life
- cfcfcf 4y ago
  I don't know. There have always been custom headsets, and they can be replaced pretty easily if not like for like. I personally find modern bikes easier to maintain. It's good to be aware of specialist parts but even Shimano hardware can be hard to source sometimes.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    At least Shimano stamps a part number on most all of its parts. I work on a lot of vintage stuff and need to do a lot of guess-work, cutting or measuring to predict/force compatibility of parts.
- perrygeo 4y ago
  It's not just finding replacements in the future. It's about stocking a reasonable workshop with tools and spare parts today given the diversity of bikes. I have 2 bikes, my wife and son each have one. Four bikes total and each one uses a different bottom bracket standard, rim and tire size, headset, seatpost diameter, hub diameter or attachment (QR vs thru), and different suspension systems. I need custom tools/parts for all of them. Heaven forbid our friends and neighbors come over asking for some bike maintenance help - because their bike has uses a fifth standard for all of the above.
- WheatMillington 4y ago
  I'm an aspiring home machinist. I smell opportunity.
- justinator 4y ago
  A good headset usually outlives the bike its installed on, in my experience. Fairly simple things if threadless, and a lot of threaded had loose bearings you could find to replace easily. (If it's damaged tho I can see you being out of luck)
bsimpson 4y ago
It's wild that disc brakes are on his bad list (for home mechanics). Changing the brake pads and burping the lines are both trivial to do yourself. Changing disc pads might actually be easier than changing rim pads.
- bamboozled 4y ago
  It's wild? Disc brake maintenance absolutely sucks. I like them, they're critical to mountain biking, but to say they're trivial to service? Not sure I can agree with you at all?
  - dharmab 4y ago
    Do you work on larger vehicles like cars, trucks or motorcycles? Compared to the brakes on my car the disc brakes on my bicycle are trivially easy.
    - diarmuidc 4y ago
      Why would you compare disc brakes to cars? Why not compare them to the rim brakes they are replacing. An order of magnitude more complicated to maintain
      - justinator 4y ago
        I've gone far into the depths of hell trying to properly set up a pair of cantilever brakes to be performative. Disk brakes any day.
        jjav 4y ago
        > I've gone far into the depths of hell trying to properly set up a pair of cantilever brakes to be performative. This! I thought I'd never have to see cantilever brakes again until turns out they were used on kids bikes so had to deal with that. Luckily my child has now grown to a slightly larger bike with hydraulic disk brakes so life is back to being easy on that front.
atourgates 4y ago
No. Honestly, I don't mean to be negative, but this article is grossly misrepresenting the actual situation. The actual problems the author of the article encountered/mentioned were that: 1) He was unfamiliar with how to use/maintain an electronic drivetrain, because he didn't have experience with one. 2) He sometimes doesn't have the right tool for the job. The truth is that bicycles are _amazingly_ user reparable. Even the latest and greatest that use electronic shifting. And in comparison to other complex consumer goods, very accessible in terms of manufacturer support, and the information available to end users. I've actually had an easier time understanding, calibrating and maintaining my electronic drivetrain (SRAM GX AXS, not the same one the op was having issues with) than I ever did with a traditional drivetrain. But probably because I'm more comfortable with electronics than mechanical things. The one exception to the "totally user maintainable" rule are some components of electric bicycles, which (at least as far as batteries and some motorized components go) can be restricted by manufacturers as to what the end user can do. Don't get me wrong. There are still plenty of things that I trust my bike mechanic to do that I won't do myself, but only because I don't have the time or focus to learn how to do them properly. Not because modern bicycles are somehow inaccessible.
- cheeze 4y ago
  Alternate title: "Fred wants to swap Di2 onto his non Di2 bike" Totally agreed though. I'm a cyclist and DIY is pretty simple, even on Di2. It's just that the author of this thread got in way over their head and wanted to do something that isn't straightforward... I wouldn't even call it maintenance. This is like the euqivalent of wondering why you can't swap your FWD Civic to AWD without a mechanic's help. This Di2 Dura Ace drivetrain sells for what, $4,000? And he's putting it on his entry-level gravel bike. He's confused about fully internal routing maintenace costing more? It's way harder to do internal routing but gives aero gains and looks nice. It's very much a "top tier bike" kinda thing. Like being surprised that your Ferrari costs more to do an oil change. It scares me that OP is a former bike shop mechanic and doesn't get this. It's not that bikes are getting too hard to work on, it's that the $12,000 bike he's trying to part out to add to his entry-level 'prosumer' gravel bike just doesn't make any sense. If you want a top tier bike that's easy to work on, Specialized Aethos is great.
jacknews 4y ago
Too much integration, and proprietary interfaces between modules, when there even are any, are the big problems here, and it's not just bicycles, but nearly everything. We need to stick with, or go back to, modular assemblies of parts with standard interfaces.
- justinator 4y ago
  I would say the bicycle is still an incredible shining example of standard interfaces working at a near universal level, given there's a billion bicycles in the world, so some variation in part sizes is to be expected. I'm not sure if I can think of a more universally modular tool for transportation that is as complex as the bicycle.
  - jacknews 4y ago
    I agree, and desktop PC are another reasonable example, but it seems even these examples are under threat from this trend toward tighter integration and proprietary standards.
incompatible 4y ago
I'm just contemplating how much I've spent on tools for various repairs to my house, and that's generally just woodwork. "At least $200 in tools" doesn't sound like the end of DIY.
- bombcar 4y ago
  $200 in tools sounds like a starting point! https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-M12-FUEL-SURGE-12V-Lithium-Ion-Brushless-Cordless-1-4-in-Hex-Impact-Driver-Compact-Kit-w-Two-2-0Ah-Batteries-Bag-2551-22/309098738 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-M12-FUEL-SURGE-12V-Lit... in fact, is almost exactly $200, and if I were buying today it'd be the first thing I grabbed.
  - cheeze 4y ago
    Milwaukee is also pretty high end, and Fuel is their top tier gear. Definitely not needed for basic home repairs and work. My recco to people is Ryobi from Direct Tools Outlet on sale, easy to find sales on Ryobi and it works well for the price. If you break the tool, congrats, you can upgrade to the top tier model. But no need to start with Milwaukee Fuel. Regardless, I agree that $200 for tools isn't that crazy, especially for specific use cases like bleeding hydraulic brakes.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Yeah Ryobi is good - but there a specifically is a hydraulic driver which just does so much and so well. I’d get it on sale of course.
- marttt 4y ago
  Agreed. Also, you don't probably need highest-end tools (e.g. most expensive chisels) as a family handyman. I've come to conclude that once you're good with sharpening, even lower-end tools do the job just fine on most "home improvement" cases. First blame the man, not the tool, as always. The best middle ground seems to be buying well-kept professional tools second hand, though. It is also strangely enjoyable to hunt for these online.
jackvalentine 4y ago
You know what has changed in bikes since I was fiddling with them as a teenager in the late 90s? YouTube. Got back in to riding bikes, got a bit sick of paying for some iffy service but being unable to articulate why I was unhappy and decided to do my own work. Every single thing that you could possibly imagine needing to be done is on YouTube. Back when I was a kid it was a case of ask my friend’s dad how to adjust the deraileur and getting it horribly wrong.
- jansan 4y ago
  One other thing that has really changed for the better is lighting. With the development of LEDs, lithium batteries and hub dynamos this is literally a difference like night and day. I remember once pressing a rim dynamo into the spokes while trying to switch on the light while riding, which resulted in a spectacular somersault.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    LED lighting has actually regressed from the halogen systems available 15 years ago. You're expected to shell out $300+ for high end systems that don't match the performance of what much cheaper halogens could do. Couple that with the near universal dishonesty about specs and it's a consumer nightmare.
sjkelly 4y ago
This article confuses modern with high end. The ultra high end of cycles is just like the ultra high end of auto mobiles. There are bespoke tools and techniques required for maintenance. The average bike sold today is probably easier to maintain that those of the past. Disc brakes don't come out of alignment as bad, aluminum frames don't rust, rims are far stronger, etc...
- cheeze 4y ago
  Spot on. This is the equivalent of OP being surprised his Ferrari has expensive and difficult maintenance. The bike he's swapping parts for retails for ~12k USD
  - HPsquared 4y ago
    Indeed. 10k for a bike is what, 10-20 times the price of a 'normal' bike, just as a Ferrari is 10-20 times the price of a normal car.
- ehnto 4y ago
  Agreed, and I think a lot of people find themselves with high end cycles by using price as a buying guide. Relatively speaking it's a smaller purchase than say a car, so it's easy to end up with more bike than you needed.
thot_experiment 4y ago
No, and also you can just get a steel frame and take basic care of it and then you'll have a steel frame to pass on to your kids. I ride a bike that's 30 years my senior.
- hvdm 4y ago
  Exactly, you can still get rim brakes if you want (I don't), mechanical shifting (I do) etc.
rale00 4y ago
Bleeding hydraulic disc brakes is a pretty daunting task, involving specialized tools, messy and possibly corrosive fluid, and just a lot of work. If they weren't essentially required for running wider tires/rims, I would avoid them entirely. Electronic shifting on the other hand is super easy, especially now that you can go full wireless. Definitely easier than say, setting up and adjusting a mechanical front derailleur.
- namdnay 4y ago
  A Universal bleed kit from decathlon costs what, 30 euros? And another 20 for a big bottle of oil? Personally I find it a lot easier than adjusting dérailleurs and stuff like that, you just push the bubbles out and job done
  - jansan 4y ago
    There have never been derailleurs in brakes AFAIR.
    - namdnay 4y ago
      I meant relative to other bike maintenance tasks, not specifically brakes :)
- somerandomqaguy 4y ago
  What's daunting about it? On a motorcycle at least you can do it with some 3/16" hose, scissors or a knife, wrench, plenty of paper tower, and a waste container (soda bottle). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twgmmQ7Livw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twgmmQ7Livw The specialized tools just make it faster/easier.
- dvzk 4y ago
  It’s straightforward and rarely messy at all. Doing a partial bleed typically takes less than 15 minutes. Sometimes longer if air really gets trapped. And low-end bleed kits cost $20-30. If you think bleeding is daunting, wait until you need to disassemble a caliper or lever to fix a stuck piston. I don’t think that’s hard either, which is why I disagree with the author. Most maintenance and assembly is documented and easy to learn. I only come close to getting an aneurism when truing or building damaged/uncooperative wheels.
osigurdson 4y ago
The main problem with modern bikes is the cost is way too high. Every time I buy a new bike (every 4-5 years), the cost goes up about $3K. I'll likely pay $10K for my next one.
- Hamuko 4y ago
  That sounds like a you problem.
  - osigurdson 4y ago
    I think it could be a problem for manufacturers as well. People will eventually get tired of getting ripped off and switch sports.
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      Bikes aren't for "sports", they're for everyday transportation.
      - osigurdson 4y ago
        I don't have such strong opinions about how bikes (or other products) should be used. I'm curious, what informed your ideology? Why is the bike such a sacred cow for you?
        midoridensha 4y ago
        You're projecting. Why do you have such a strong opinion about how bikes should be used?
        osigurdson 4y ago
        >> Bikes aren't for "sports", they're for everyday transportation That is your comment. I have no opinion whatsoever regarding how bikes should be used.
raisin_churn 4y ago
While I disagree that hydraulic brakes are a significant hurdle for home mechanics having learned to bleed hydraulic car brakes at 12 years old, and the author is probably wrong about electronic shifting as well, the fact is all these technologies are purely optional. I ride several thousand miles a year on bikes, road and mountain, with rim brakes and mechanical shifting, and have never felt the need to "upgrade." Apart from the fork and seatpost on one of my road bikes, there's also no carbon fiber anywhere to be found. I don't ride competitively (and most competitive riders don't personally maintain their racing bikes), but in the groups I ride with my bikes are the "lowest tech" and always the oldest, usually by a decade or two, and I'm almost never the slowest in the group. That being said, many people like the newest technology, be that bikes, cars, cell phones, whatever, and that's fine. This same article could have been written (and was, many times) about integrated index shifters when they came out over 30 years ago (Shimano STI in particular, as Campy Ergopowers, at least Record, are rebuildable, if you can find spare parts for your 25 year old Titanium Record 9 Speed shifters). One of my road bikes, with well over 10k miles on it, has the original Shimano 105 levers, still kicking. Yes, if they break, I will probably not be able to repair them, but I also can't repair a broken aluminum chainring, I just get a new one. E-bikes are a bit of a different story, but that's largely because of ignorance and fear of electricity and how it works more than anything else. It may prove to deter some people from getting their hands dirty on their bike, which is a shame, but if you just look at the size of the e-scooter hacking community, that should put to rest the notion that it's an absolute barrier to entry.
cycomanic 4y ago
Like other said the article mixes several different things and I don't agree that all of them make bike maintanance more difficult. Take the electronic shifting. SRAM electronic components for example are super easy to swap, no cables, just remove chain and screw off the derailleur and it's in you hand. Similarly getting disc brakes adjusted, can often mean to just loosen the bolts hold the brake and tighten, some of the former rim brakes were an absolute pain in comparison. Bottom bracket standards he is right about, way too many manufacturers came up with their own, although I disagree that this is about pressfit (it's easy to make your own tools for fitting pressfit bbs). The big one is internal cable routing especially with many new integrated cockpits. I think what we are see here is the limited engineering skill that exists at bike manufacturers. In contrast to automotive where a lot more thought would have gone into the design, they just put something "aero" together without thinking about the implications. Things therefore will take a number of iterations.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  >Bottom bracket standards he is right about, way too many manufacturers came up with their own No, he's wrong about this one too. He used to be right, 5-10 years ago. The bike makers finally saw the light with the ridiculous proliferation of BB standards, and also gave up on pressfit (it caused more problems than it solved, and also the factories just don't have good enough manufacturing tolerances for pressfit brackets to be trouble-free), so they've all been moving to a single threaded BB standard now.
  - cycomanic 4y ago
    That's simply incorrect, just because Trek and Specialized are using t47 does not mean it's now the new standard. In fact it's just the opposite, just another standard. You're also wrong about it being better. Yes manufacturers have terrible quality control, that's because the big brands outsource to the cheapest manufacturer, buy frames for ~$100 and sell them for $4000 with completely crooked BBs. However screw in BBs don't really help, problems just show up later (which is to their advantage). Pressfit BBs are superior in every way if manufacturers actually followed the specs.
justinator 4y ago
Bikes are much easier to maintain than they have been in the past. Mechanical 1x drive trains are much easier to fine tune than anything with a front derailleur. I'll take cable actuated disk brakes over cantilever brakes any day of the year. Outboard bearing bottom brackets are much simpler than square tapered bottom brackets - I never want to see a crank puller ever again in my life. Threaded stems always felt like a kludge. Many more specialized parts of bikes: suspension (especially rear), tubeless tires, electronic shifting are optional. If you spend $10,000+ on a bike, there may be some parts that are more persnickety than others to a garage wrench turner. The one good tool to get to make things go much more smoother is an accurate torque wrench for things like bottom bracket installation. If you've got fancy carbon parts (which I do not), you need another, smaller one for smaller nm of torque(s). Also, what are we comparing bike to? They're easier than a motorcycle, and much of a motorcycle is easy enough to work on at home if you have the curiosity. What modern bike parts are (which I'll concede) in many cases are more delicate. I don't like how thin my 11spd chain is compared to the 9spd I started out with, and I don't like how sensitive to wear the entire drivetrain is either, but thems the breaks. Proper cleaning and lubing is just that much more important.
- jansan 4y ago
  If you spend $10,000+ on a bike Holy shit, people do this? Around here used steel frame bicycles from the 80s with a Shimano 600 are €350 if in good condition. And the fact that they are from the 80s and in good condition tells us something about maintainablility of those bicycles.
  - justinator 4y ago
    In Boulder, CO (where you'll pay million+ for a starter home) I see custom titanium bikes built by local frame builders used as grocery getters, so $10,000 is not the high end here. $10,000 is what you'd see at the masters club ride if you were low rent. The used bike market here is totally nuts - I would say you could get at least 2x the price for a well maintained Shimano 600 here. There's probably an even bigger add-on to the price because it's "vintage".
  - theshrike79 4y ago
zwog 4y ago
The article opens with a somewhat moot point. The Factor Ostro VAM mentioned is a pro bike and costs around $10,000 - so it's no wonder that it also requires professional screwdrivers and the corresponding tools.
jibbit 4y ago
Obviously Betteridge's law, but.. Hell yes something is being lost. Many cities are finally getting something like the cycling infrastructure that cyclists have dreamt about. Unfortunately, it’s for electric mopeds. They’re as hostile to push bikes as cars. From the comments here maybe this isn’t obvious (yet) from a US perspective. Few seem to have got the point of the article.
freetime2 4y ago
I would like to see internal gear hubs and belt drives available in more bikes [1]. I have a ebike with a 3-speed internal hub that has been an absolute delight to own. While maybe not easier to work on yourself - they require so much less maintanence that I think a lot of people would could really benefit from them. I see so many people here riding around on creaky chains and improperly tensioned derailleurs, it makes my stomach churn! And not just for "upright" bikes either. I think an 11-speed hub in a hybrid bike would be enough for lot of recreational riders. Or even a "gravel" bike with drop bars and an internal hub would could make for a pretty interesting go-anywhere, do-anything sort of bike. [1] https://www.cyclingabout.com/shimano-alfine-explained-internal-gear-bicycle-hub/ https://www.cyclingabout.com/shimano-alfine-explained-intern...
- dvzk 4y ago
  It’s not what you’re asking for, but the recent Scott Spark series integrates the rear shock into the carbon frame compartment, which is a neat invention.
difosfor 4y ago
As a city (Amsterdam) bike rider I still shy away from needlessly expensive or complicated technology like hydraulic disc brakes. But internal routing is very much worth the complexity here where cables get caught up in other people's steers in crowded bicycle racks. I hadn't even heard of electronic shifters, though I guess once you go for an electric bike that wouldn't be a big step anymore. So, yeah, over here I think most bikes are still pretty simple; except for the slowly increasing amount of electronic bikes. But they are still by far a minority. Although as a mechanic perhaps you'll run into them more often?
- midoridensha 4y ago
  >As a city (Amsterdam) bike rider I still shy away from needlessly expensive or complicated technology like hydraulic disc brakes Disc brakes aren't complicated or needless. However, Amsterdam is flat as a pancake, and speeds are low, so you're able to get away with those shitty coaster brakes on all the bikes there; disc brakes would probably be overkill, and coaster brakes don't have the problems with weather that rim brakes have (Amsterdam is wet, and rim brakes are ineffective when it's very wet). Also, all the bikes I saw in Amsterdam were simple one-person bikes, not heavy e-bikes with child seats. If you had big hills there, disc brakes would be basically a necessity. Here in Tokyo, all the new mamachari (bikes for mothers, with 2 child seats) are heavy e-bikes with disc brakes. It's not mountainous here but we do have hills.
zhrvoj 4y ago
It is the fact that in almost all areas - from electronics to mechanics, main after sales issues are led by a people that are only marketing managers or similar. So forget about any possibility of self maintenance, or it will be very limited. Their job is to make this unavailable, or hardly available with fee. If anbody can contradict these, please, light me up, that it isn't so...

38 points by cainxinth 4y ago

At least it is still the case that if my bike needs something beyond my skill/toolset, I can go to any good bike shop in my area. I’m not dependent on the manufacturer.

fiftyacorn 4y ago

The issue isnt just maintenance - its a lot of specialist parts will have a shelf life of 5-10 years then you will be lucky to find them. An example being with custom headsets on frames - you'll not get a replacement and the frame will be end of life

cfcfcf 4y ago
I don't know. There have always been custom headsets, and they can be replaced pretty easily if not like for like. I personally find modern bikes easier to maintain. It's good to be aware of specialist parts but even Shimano hardware can be hard to source sometimes.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  At least Shimano stamps a part number on most all of its parts. I work on a lot of vintage stuff and need to do a lot of guess-work, cutting or measuring to predict/force compatibility of parts.
perrygeo 4y ago
It's not just finding replacements in the future. It's about stocking a reasonable workshop with tools and spare parts today given the diversity of bikes. I have 2 bikes, my wife and son each have one. Four bikes total and each one uses a different bottom bracket standard, rim and tire size, headset, seatpost diameter, hub diameter or attachment (QR vs thru), and different suspension systems. I need custom tools/parts for all of them. Heaven forbid our friends and neighbors come over asking for some bike maintenance help - because their bike has uses a fifth standard for all of the above.
WheatMillington 4y ago
I'm an aspiring home machinist. I smell opportunity.
justinator 4y ago
A good headset usually outlives the bike its installed on, in my experience. Fairly simple things if threadless, and a lot of threaded had loose bearings you could find to replace easily. (If it's damaged tho I can see you being out of luck)

bsimpson 4y ago

It's wild that disc brakes are on his bad list (for home mechanics). Changing the brake pads and burping the lines are both trivial to do yourself. Changing disc pads might actually be easier than changing rim pads.

bamboozled 4y ago
It's wild? Disc brake maintenance absolutely sucks. I like them, they're critical to mountain biking, but to say they're trivial to service? Not sure I can agree with you at all?
- dharmab 4y ago
  Do you work on larger vehicles like cars, trucks or motorcycles? Compared to the brakes on my car the disc brakes on my bicycle are trivially easy.
  - diarmuidc 4y ago
    Why would you compare disc brakes to cars? Why not compare them to the rim brakes they are replacing. An order of magnitude more complicated to maintain
    - justinator 4y ago
      I've gone far into the depths of hell trying to properly set up a pair of cantilever brakes to be performative. Disk brakes any day.
      - jjav 4y ago
        > I've gone far into the depths of hell trying to properly set up a pair of cantilever brakes to be performative. This! I thought I'd never have to see cantilever brakes again until turns out they were used on kids bikes so had to deal with that. Luckily my child has now grown to a slightly larger bike with hydraulic disk brakes so life is back to being easy on that front.

atourgates 4y ago

No. Honestly, I don't mean to be negative, but this article is grossly misrepresenting the actual situation. The actual problems the author of the article encountered/mentioned were that: 1) He was unfamiliar with how to use/maintain an electronic drivetrain, because he didn't have experience with one. 2) He sometimes doesn't have the right tool for the job. The truth is that bicycles are _amazingly_ user reparable. Even the latest and greatest that use electronic shifting. And in comparison to other complex consumer goods, very accessible in terms of manufacturer support, and the information available to end users. I've actually had an easier time understanding, calibrating and maintaining my electronic drivetrain (SRAM GX AXS, not the same one the op was having issues with) than I ever did with a traditional drivetrain. But probably because I'm more comfortable with electronics than mechanical things. The one exception to the "totally user maintainable" rule are some components of electric bicycles, which (at least as far as batteries and some motorized components go) can be restricted by manufacturers as to what the end user can do. Don't get me wrong. There are still plenty of things that I trust my bike mechanic to do that I won't do myself, but only because I don't have the time or focus to learn how to do them properly. Not because modern bicycles are somehow inaccessible.

cheeze 4y ago
Alternate title: "Fred wants to swap Di2 onto his non Di2 bike" Totally agreed though. I'm a cyclist and DIY is pretty simple, even on Di2. It's just that the author of this thread got in way over their head and wanted to do something that isn't straightforward... I wouldn't even call it maintenance. This is like the euqivalent of wondering why you can't swap your FWD Civic to AWD without a mechanic's help. This Di2 Dura Ace drivetrain sells for what, $4,000? And he's putting it on his entry-level gravel bike. He's confused about fully internal routing maintenace costing more? It's way harder to do internal routing but gives aero gains and looks nice. It's very much a "top tier bike" kinda thing. Like being surprised that your Ferrari costs more to do an oil change. It scares me that OP is a former bike shop mechanic and doesn't get this. It's not that bikes are getting too hard to work on, it's that the $12,000 bike he's trying to part out to add to his entry-level 'prosumer' gravel bike just doesn't make any sense. If you want a top tier bike that's easy to work on, Specialized Aethos is great.

jacknews 4y ago

Too much integration, and proprietary interfaces between modules, when there even are any, are the big problems here, and it's not just bicycles, but nearly everything. We need to stick with, or go back to, modular assemblies of parts with standard interfaces.

justinator 4y ago
I would say the bicycle is still an incredible shining example of standard interfaces working at a near universal level, given there's a billion bicycles in the world, so some variation in part sizes is to be expected. I'm not sure if I can think of a more universally modular tool for transportation that is as complex as the bicycle.
- jacknews 4y ago
  I agree, and desktop PC are another reasonable example, but it seems even these examples are under threat from this trend toward tighter integration and proprietary standards.

incompatible 4y ago

I'm just contemplating how much I've spent on tools for various repairs to my house, and that's generally just woodwork. "At least $200 in tools" doesn't sound like the end of DIY.

bombcar 4y ago
$200 in tools sounds like a starting point! https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-M12-FUEL-SURGE-12V-Lithium-Ion-Brushless-Cordless-1-4-in-Hex-Impact-Driver-Compact-Kit-w-Two-2-0Ah-Batteries-Bag-2551-22/309098738 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-M12-FUEL-SURGE-12V-Lit... in fact, is almost exactly $200, and if I were buying today it'd be the first thing I grabbed.
- cheeze 4y ago
  Milwaukee is also pretty high end, and Fuel is their top tier gear. Definitely not needed for basic home repairs and work. My recco to people is Ryobi from Direct Tools Outlet on sale, easy to find sales on Ryobi and it works well for the price. If you break the tool, congrats, you can upgrade to the top tier model. But no need to start with Milwaukee Fuel. Regardless, I agree that $200 for tools isn't that crazy, especially for specific use cases like bleeding hydraulic brakes.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Yeah Ryobi is good - but there a specifically is a hydraulic driver which just does so much and so well. I’d get it on sale of course.
marttt 4y ago
Agreed. Also, you don't probably need highest-end tools (e.g. most expensive chisels) as a family handyman. I've come to conclude that once you're good with sharpening, even lower-end tools do the job just fine on most "home improvement" cases. First blame the man, not the tool, as always. The best middle ground seems to be buying well-kept professional tools second hand, though. It is also strangely enjoyable to hunt for these online.

jackvalentine 4y ago

You know what has changed in bikes since I was fiddling with them as a teenager in the late 90s? YouTube. Got back in to riding bikes, got a bit sick of paying for some iffy service but being unable to articulate why I was unhappy and decided to do my own work. Every single thing that you could possibly imagine needing to be done is on YouTube. Back when I was a kid it was a case of ask my friend’s dad how to adjust the deraileur and getting it horribly wrong.

jansan 4y ago
One other thing that has really changed for the better is lighting. With the development of LEDs, lithium batteries and hub dynamos this is literally a difference like night and day. I remember once pressing a rim dynamo into the spokes while trying to switch on the light while riding, which resulted in a spectacular somersault.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  LED lighting has actually regressed from the halogen systems available 15 years ago. You're expected to shell out $300+ for high end systems that don't match the performance of what much cheaper halogens could do. Couple that with the near universal dishonesty about specs and it's a consumer nightmare.

sjkelly 4y ago

This article confuses modern with high end. The ultra high end of cycles is just like the ultra high end of auto mobiles. There are bespoke tools and techniques required for maintenance. The average bike sold today is probably easier to maintain that those of the past. Disc brakes don't come out of alignment as bad, aluminum frames don't rust, rims are far stronger, etc...

cheeze 4y ago
Spot on. This is the equivalent of OP being surprised his Ferrari has expensive and difficult maintenance. The bike he's swapping parts for retails for ~12k USD
- HPsquared 4y ago
  Indeed. 10k for a bike is what, 10-20 times the price of a 'normal' bike, just as a Ferrari is 10-20 times the price of a normal car.
ehnto 4y ago
Agreed, and I think a lot of people find themselves with high end cycles by using price as a buying guide. Relatively speaking it's a smaller purchase than say a car, so it's easy to end up with more bike than you needed.

thot_experiment 4y ago

No, and also you can just get a steel frame and take basic care of it and then you'll have a steel frame to pass on to your kids. I ride a bike that's 30 years my senior.

hvdm 4y ago
Exactly, you can still get rim brakes if you want (I don't), mechanical shifting (I do) etc.

rale00 4y ago

Bleeding hydraulic disc brakes is a pretty daunting task, involving specialized tools, messy and possibly corrosive fluid, and just a lot of work. If they weren't essentially required for running wider tires/rims, I would avoid them entirely. Electronic shifting on the other hand is super easy, especially now that you can go full wireless. Definitely easier than say, setting up and adjusting a mechanical front derailleur.

namdnay 4y ago
A Universal bleed kit from decathlon costs what, 30 euros? And another 20 for a big bottle of oil? Personally I find it a lot easier than adjusting dérailleurs and stuff like that, you just push the bubbles out and job done
- jansan 4y ago
  There have never been derailleurs in brakes AFAIR.
  - namdnay 4y ago
    I meant relative to other bike maintenance tasks, not specifically brakes :)
somerandomqaguy 4y ago
What's daunting about it? On a motorcycle at least you can do it with some 3/16" hose, scissors or a knife, wrench, plenty of paper tower, and a waste container (soda bottle). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twgmmQ7Livw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twgmmQ7Livw The specialized tools just make it faster/easier.
dvzk 4y ago
It’s straightforward and rarely messy at all. Doing a partial bleed typically takes less than 15 minutes. Sometimes longer if air really gets trapped. And low-end bleed kits cost $20-30. If you think bleeding is daunting, wait until you need to disassemble a caliper or lever to fix a stuck piston. I don’t think that’s hard either, which is why I disagree with the author. Most maintenance and assembly is documented and easy to learn. I only come close to getting an aneurism when truing or building damaged/uncooperative wheels.

osigurdson 4y ago

The main problem with modern bikes is the cost is way too high. Every time I buy a new bike (every 4-5 years), the cost goes up about $3K. I'll likely pay $10K for my next one.

Hamuko 4y ago
That sounds like a you problem.
- osigurdson 4y ago
  I think it could be a problem for manufacturers as well. People will eventually get tired of getting ripped off and switch sports.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    Bikes aren't for "sports", they're for everyday transportation.
    - osigurdson 4y ago
      I don't have such strong opinions about how bikes (or other products) should be used. I'm curious, what informed your ideology? Why is the bike such a sacred cow for you?
      - midoridensha 4y ago
        You're projecting. Why do you have such a strong opinion about how bikes should be used?
        osigurdson 4y ago
        >> Bikes aren't for "sports", they're for everyday transportation That is your comment. I have no opinion whatsoever regarding how bikes should be used.

raisin_churn 4y ago

While I disagree that hydraulic brakes are a significant hurdle for home mechanics having learned to bleed hydraulic car brakes at 12 years old, and the author is probably wrong about electronic shifting as well, the fact is all these technologies are purely optional. I ride several thousand miles a year on bikes, road and mountain, with rim brakes and mechanical shifting, and have never felt the need to "upgrade." Apart from the fork and seatpost on one of my road bikes, there's also no carbon fiber anywhere to be found. I don't ride competitively (and most competitive riders don't personally maintain their racing bikes), but in the groups I ride with my bikes are the "lowest tech" and always the oldest, usually by a decade or two, and I'm almost never the slowest in the group. That being said, many people like the newest technology, be that bikes, cars, cell phones, whatever, and that's fine. This same article could have been written (and was, many times) about integrated index shifters when they came out over 30 years ago (Shimano STI in particular, as Campy Ergopowers, at least Record, are rebuildable, if you can find spare parts for your 25 year old Titanium Record 9 Speed shifters). One of my road bikes, with well over 10k miles on it, has the original Shimano 105 levers, still kicking. Yes, if they break, I will probably not be able to repair them, but I also can't repair a broken aluminum chainring, I just get a new one. E-bikes are a bit of a different story, but that's largely because of ignorance and fear of electricity and how it works more than anything else. It may prove to deter some people from getting their hands dirty on their bike, which is a shame, but if you just look at the size of the e-scooter hacking community, that should put to rest the notion that it's an absolute barrier to entry.

cycomanic 4y ago

Like other said the article mixes several different things and I don't agree that all of them make bike maintanance more difficult. Take the electronic shifting. SRAM electronic components for example are super easy to swap, no cables, just remove chain and screw off the derailleur and it's in you hand. Similarly getting disc brakes adjusted, can often mean to just loosen the bolts hold the brake and tighten, some of the former rim brakes were an absolute pain in comparison. Bottom bracket standards he is right about, way too many manufacturers came up with their own, although I disagree that this is about pressfit (it's easy to make your own tools for fitting pressfit bbs). The big one is internal cable routing especially with many new integrated cockpits. I think what we are see here is the limited engineering skill that exists at bike manufacturers. In contrast to automotive where a lot more thought would have gone into the design, they just put something "aero" together without thinking about the implications. Things therefore will take a number of iterations.

midoridensha 4y ago
>Bottom bracket standards he is right about, way too many manufacturers came up with their own No, he's wrong about this one too. He used to be right, 5-10 years ago. The bike makers finally saw the light with the ridiculous proliferation of BB standards, and also gave up on pressfit (it caused more problems than it solved, and also the factories just don't have good enough manufacturing tolerances for pressfit brackets to be trouble-free), so they've all been moving to a single threaded BB standard now.
- cycomanic 4y ago
  That's simply incorrect, just because Trek and Specialized are using t47 does not mean it's now the new standard. In fact it's just the opposite, just another standard. You're also wrong about it being better. Yes manufacturers have terrible quality control, that's because the big brands outsource to the cheapest manufacturer, buy frames for ~$100 and sell them for $4000 with completely crooked BBs. However screw in BBs don't really help, problems just show up later (which is to their advantage). Pressfit BBs are superior in every way if manufacturers actually followed the specs.

justinator 4y ago

Bikes are much easier to maintain than they have been in the past. Mechanical 1x drive trains are much easier to fine tune than anything with a front derailleur. I'll take cable actuated disk brakes over cantilever brakes any day of the year. Outboard bearing bottom brackets are much simpler than square tapered bottom brackets - I never want to see a crank puller ever again in my life. Threaded stems always felt like a kludge. Many more specialized parts of bikes: suspension (especially rear), tubeless tires, electronic shifting are optional. If you spend $10,000+ on a bike, there may be some parts that are more persnickety than others to a garage wrench turner. The one good tool to get to make things go much more smoother is an accurate torque wrench for things like bottom bracket installation. If you've got fancy carbon parts (which I do not), you need another, smaller one for smaller nm of torque(s). Also, what are we comparing bike to? They're easier than a motorcycle, and much of a motorcycle is easy enough to work on at home if you have the curiosity. What modern bike parts are (which I'll concede) in many cases are more delicate. I don't like how thin my 11spd chain is compared to the 9spd I started out with, and I don't like how sensitive to wear the entire drivetrain is either, but thems the breaks. Proper cleaning and lubing is just that much more important.

jansan 4y ago
If you spend $10,000+ on a bike Holy shit, people do this? Around here used steel frame bicycles from the 80s with a Shimano 600 are €350 if in good condition. And the fact that they are from the 80s and in good condition tells us something about maintainablility of those bicycles.
- justinator 4y ago
  In Boulder, CO (where you'll pay million+ for a starter home) I see custom titanium bikes built by local frame builders used as grocery getters, so $10,000 is not the high end here. $10,000 is what you'd see at the masters club ride if you were low rent. The used bike market here is totally nuts - I would say you could get at least 2x the price for a well maintained Shimano 600 here. There's probably an even bigger add-on to the price because it's "vintage".
- theshrike79 4y ago

zwog 4y ago

The article opens with a somewhat moot point. The Factor Ostro VAM mentioned is a pro bike and costs around $10,000 - so it's no wonder that it also requires professional screwdrivers and the corresponding tools.

jibbit 4y ago

Obviously Betteridge's law, but.. Hell yes something is being lost. Many cities are finally getting something like the cycling infrastructure that cyclists have dreamt about. Unfortunately, it’s for electric mopeds. They’re as hostile to push bikes as cars. From the comments here maybe this isn’t obvious (yet) from a US perspective. Few seem to have got the point of the article.

freetime2 4y ago

I would like to see internal gear hubs and belt drives available in more bikes [1]. I have a ebike with a 3-speed internal hub that has been an absolute delight to own. While maybe not easier to work on yourself - they require so much less maintanence that I think a lot of people would could really benefit from them. I see so many people here riding around on creaky chains and improperly tensioned derailleurs, it makes my stomach churn! And not just for "upright" bikes either. I think an 11-speed hub in a hybrid bike would be enough for lot of recreational riders. Or even a "gravel" bike with drop bars and an internal hub would could make for a pretty interesting go-anywhere, do-anything sort of bike. [1] https://www.cyclingabout.com/shimano-alfine-explained-internal-gear-bicycle-hub/ https://www.cyclingabout.com/shimano-alfine-explained-intern...

dvzk 4y ago
It’s not what you’re asking for, but the recent Scott Spark series integrates the rear shock into the carbon frame compartment, which is a neat invention.

difosfor 4y ago

As a city (Amsterdam) bike rider I still shy away from needlessly expensive or complicated technology like hydraulic disc brakes. But internal routing is very much worth the complexity here where cables get caught up in other people's steers in crowded bicycle racks. I hadn't even heard of electronic shifters, though I guess once you go for an electric bike that wouldn't be a big step anymore. So, yeah, over here I think most bikes are still pretty simple; except for the slowly increasing amount of electronic bikes. But they are still by far a minority. Although as a mechanic perhaps you'll run into them more often?

midoridensha 4y ago
>As a city (Amsterdam) bike rider I still shy away from needlessly expensive or complicated technology like hydraulic disc brakes Disc brakes aren't complicated or needless. However, Amsterdam is flat as a pancake, and speeds are low, so you're able to get away with those shitty coaster brakes on all the bikes there; disc brakes would probably be overkill, and coaster brakes don't have the problems with weather that rim brakes have (Amsterdam is wet, and rim brakes are ineffective when it's very wet). Also, all the bikes I saw in Amsterdam were simple one-person bikes, not heavy e-bikes with child seats. If you had big hills there, disc brakes would be basically a necessity. Here in Tokyo, all the new mamachari (bikes for mothers, with 2 child seats) are heavy e-bikes with disc brakes. It's not mountainous here but we do have hills.

zhrvoj 4y ago

It is the fact that in almost all areas - from electronics to mechanics, main after sales issues are led by a people that are only marketing managers or similar. So forget about any possibility of self maintenance, or it will be very limited. Their job is to make this unavailable, or hardly available with fee. If anbody can contradict these, please, light me up, that it isn't so...