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The view from outside tech: I'm an hourly laborer who thinks computers are fun and free software unixen are most fun, which is how I ended up finding HN. I've

The view from outside tech: I'm an hourly laborer who thinks computers are fun and free software unixen are most fun, which is how I ended up finding HN. I've worked a number of manufacturing and agricultural jobs. Right now I make car parts. I don't have a choice. I check the calendar on the wall and work the hours it says or I'm fired. I work 60-70 hours a week. This is normal. The workforce is stretched thin as you can make similar money fucking around with your phone on the clock at Walmart, and bargaining power of unskilled (nee essential) labor is at an all time low. You tech types have the best bargaining power of anyone, crazy pay, nice working conditions out of the elements in hazard free offices, and you will lose it all if you don't stand in solidarity. At manufacturings peak in America people like me had good middle class lives but as it waned and unions were busted and we suffered title deflation (opposite of entry level coder being an engineer, machinists became operators, foremen became team leaders) quality of life and ability to dictate terms of employment faded. Someday tech will have it's 80s, vc will stop chasing the next apple or MS, engineers will become coders, sysadmins will become IT techs, wages will stagnate, and if you're all working till 8 it will go from extra to expected. Draw lines, stand in solidarity, set expectations, have a talk with coworkers who are pussies doing extra for nothing that they're fucking up the solidarity thing.

yakak 4y ago
I don't understand, if you are an hourly worker you are getting paid at least as much for each additional hour? A salaried worker is comparing jobs that claim to be 40 hours and is being cheated out of income per hour if they take one that is actually more hours than another position with the same salary. There are the same kinds of labor cheats done on hourly laborers, but you can measure the crime and get a significant damages pay out (at least in some states) if you contact a labor attorney.
- jryhjythtr 4y ago
  >I don't understand, If you are a software engineer (or even, a "coder", which I think is an incredibly apt analogy for OP to mention), does your work calendar currently say "code this week for 65 hours or else" ?
  - yakak 4y ago
    Of course not, I would accept a different job. The game is doing these or else's within the week and not compensating for them. A company that pays 70 hour a week worker is paying for at least 85 hours of time or can be sued and the worker must not have any more appropriate offers that the employer tricked them out of taking.
    - jryhjythtr 4y ago
      >Of course not, I would accept a different job. Tell OP that. Or, maybe you could heed his warning about the future of the software industry.
      - yakak 4y ago
        The problem of the salary job overtime scam is one of an employer misrepresenting a job to be equivalent to other jobs to ultimately get more value for less money, it has nothing to do with different parts of the job market having lower bargaining power. If the software industry fails, the scam is entirely unnecessary.
- rc_subreme 4y ago
  Yes. I am paid time and a half past 40 hours as mandated by US law. At time and a half, I am still falling short of the salaried spreadsheet operators who are the lower tier of the non-labor workforce. If you take all the overtime, 12 hours every weekday and 8 hours on saturday, for an entire year, you can make 70K before taxes. My issue is mostly wage stagnation and lesser benefits, as well as the lack of security, and the way the trend isn't showing any signs of reversing leaving me worried if gen Z is even going to bother and an entire way of life won't disappear along with 'Made in the U.S.A', as well as a warning that tech field might be next up for optimization of labor costs if VCs go off to chase the next thing and CRUD stops printing money.
lr4444lr 4y ago
"The workforce is stretched thin as you can make similar money fucking around with your phone on the clock at Walmart" I don't understand this. "Stretched thin" means there are few of you. If you can make similar money in easier work at Walmart, why wouldn't you do that? Not looking to be oppositional, I just don't understand your point here. I would imagine that what you do is in fact skilled labor that should pay better than Walmart clerking.
- cj 4y ago
  (Not the OP) An analogy: would you quit a $140k developer job for a job that pays the same, but has you answering the phone for 8 hours a day in a Google Support call center, helping people reset their gmail password 100 times a day? I'm guessing most developers would prefer keeping their dev job rather than doing easier work at the same pay in a call center. Edit: To make the analogy even more direct, I think the majority of engineers would even prefer to keep a $140k engineering job, even if Walmart were paying $140k to be a cashier.
  - derangedHorse 4y ago
    Not equivalent to the OP's situation though. If the question were framed in the same context it would read more like: would you quit a $140k developer job that requires 12 hours a day for a job that pays the same, but has you answering the phone for 8 hours a day in a Google Support call center, helping people reset their gmail password 100 times a day? In that case yes. I could use that 33% reduction in consumed time to work freelance developer jobs that won't endanger my livelihood if I decide to quit. If anything I would be angry at the factory workers who stay for the same pay since there are better job alternatives that could be used as bargaining chips.
- public_defender 4y ago
  > "Stretched thin" means there are few of you. I think in context you can assume OP means the people are being overworked because they are perceived as replaceable. > I just don't understand your point here. I would imagine that what you do is in fact skilled labor. OP likely does do skilled labor, but the employer has evolved to efficiently exploit it, by which I mean deprive these workers of adequate compensation. Part of that has been classing the labor as "unskilled."
alerighi 4y ago
Well, the US is one exception in terms of software engineers salaries being so high. I work in Italy and a software engineer salary is at the same level of any other office job, or just a little higher, in fact most software engineered have a contract of metalworker ("metalmeccanico") probably for the fact that in origin most software engineering jobs were related to industrial machinery such as CNC and similar. Sometimes a good worker in a factory can make more money, or a plumber, electrician, etc that has his small business will make more money, a truck driver will make (a lot) more money, etc.
- rc_subreme 4y ago
  It looks like Europe has reached a far more sustainable labor market in general, with lower peaks and higher valleys. As well as much better time off, and benefits like health and pension secured by public institutions instead of employers. I'd be willing to give up my chance at more money through starting a contracting business or pivoting to webdev with some certs to know that workers are more secure in their future. Thanks for a view from somewhere far away.
aym-v 4y ago
> Opposite of entry level coder being an engineer Are entry level mechanical engineers called mechanics? This assumes that software engineering is (only) about code, which is false. > Someday tech will have it's 80s, vc will stop chasing the next apple or MS, engineers will become coders, sysadmins will become IT techs, wages will stagnate, and if you're all working till 8 it will go from extra to expected. Wages may stagnate at some point because supply may match demand. However, why would job titles deflate? The skills you refer to are not comparable to unskilled factory work.
not1ofU 4y ago
I agree, but you are trying to convince an audience made up of a "few" of the types of people who came up with those methods you raise here, or at the very least trying to get to that position. If anything you might even be provding a few of the younger ones with a road map. (joke / sort of). Source: see the reponses :-D

yakak 4y ago

I don't understand, if you are an hourly worker you are getting paid at least as much for each additional hour? A salaried worker is comparing jobs that claim to be 40 hours and is being cheated out of income per hour if they take one that is actually more hours than another position with the same salary. There are the same kinds of labor cheats done on hourly laborers, but you can measure the crime and get a significant damages pay out (at least in some states) if you contact a labor attorney.

jryhjythtr 4y ago
>I don't understand, If you are a software engineer (or even, a "coder", which I think is an incredibly apt analogy for OP to mention), does your work calendar currently say "code this week for 65 hours or else" ?
- yakak 4y ago
  Of course not, I would accept a different job. The game is doing these or else's within the week and not compensating for them. A company that pays 70 hour a week worker is paying for at least 85 hours of time or can be sued and the worker must not have any more appropriate offers that the employer tricked them out of taking.
  - jryhjythtr 4y ago
    >Of course not, I would accept a different job. Tell OP that. Or, maybe you could heed his warning about the future of the software industry.
    - yakak 4y ago
      The problem of the salary job overtime scam is one of an employer misrepresenting a job to be equivalent to other jobs to ultimately get more value for less money, it has nothing to do with different parts of the job market having lower bargaining power. If the software industry fails, the scam is entirely unnecessary.
rc_subreme 4y ago
Yes. I am paid time and a half past 40 hours as mandated by US law. At time and a half, I am still falling short of the salaried spreadsheet operators who are the lower tier of the non-labor workforce. If you take all the overtime, 12 hours every weekday and 8 hours on saturday, for an entire year, you can make 70K before taxes. My issue is mostly wage stagnation and lesser benefits, as well as the lack of security, and the way the trend isn't showing any signs of reversing leaving me worried if gen Z is even going to bother and an entire way of life won't disappear along with 'Made in the U.S.A', as well as a warning that tech field might be next up for optimization of labor costs if VCs go off to chase the next thing and CRUD stops printing money.

lr4444lr 4y ago

"The workforce is stretched thin as you can make similar money fucking around with your phone on the clock at Walmart" I don't understand this. "Stretched thin" means there are few of you. If you can make similar money in easier work at Walmart, why wouldn't you do that? Not looking to be oppositional, I just don't understand your point here. I would imagine that what you do is in fact skilled labor that should pay better than Walmart clerking.

cj 4y ago
(Not the OP) An analogy: would you quit a $140k developer job for a job that pays the same, but has you answering the phone for 8 hours a day in a Google Support call center, helping people reset their gmail password 100 times a day? I'm guessing most developers would prefer keeping their dev job rather than doing easier work at the same pay in a call center. Edit: To make the analogy even more direct, I think the majority of engineers would even prefer to keep a $140k engineering job, even if Walmart were paying $140k to be a cashier.
- derangedHorse 4y ago
  Not equivalent to the OP's situation though. If the question were framed in the same context it would read more like: would you quit a $140k developer job that requires 12 hours a day for a job that pays the same, but has you answering the phone for 8 hours a day in a Google Support call center, helping people reset their gmail password 100 times a day? In that case yes. I could use that 33% reduction in consumed time to work freelance developer jobs that won't endanger my livelihood if I decide to quit. If anything I would be angry at the factory workers who stay for the same pay since there are better job alternatives that could be used as bargaining chips.
public_defender 4y ago
> "Stretched thin" means there are few of you. I think in context you can assume OP means the people are being overworked because they are perceived as replaceable. > I just don't understand your point here. I would imagine that what you do is in fact skilled labor. OP likely does do skilled labor, but the employer has evolved to efficiently exploit it, by which I mean deprive these workers of adequate compensation. Part of that has been classing the labor as "unskilled."

alerighi 4y ago

Well, the US is one exception in terms of software engineers salaries being so high. I work in Italy and a software engineer salary is at the same level of any other office job, or just a little higher, in fact most software engineered have a contract of metalworker ("metalmeccanico") probably for the fact that in origin most software engineering jobs were related to industrial machinery such as CNC and similar. Sometimes a good worker in a factory can make more money, or a plumber, electrician, etc that has his small business will make more money, a truck driver will make (a lot) more money, etc.

rc_subreme 4y ago
It looks like Europe has reached a far more sustainable labor market in general, with lower peaks and higher valleys. As well as much better time off, and benefits like health and pension secured by public institutions instead of employers. I'd be willing to give up my chance at more money through starting a contracting business or pivoting to webdev with some certs to know that workers are more secure in their future. Thanks for a view from somewhere far away.

aym-v 4y ago

> Opposite of entry level coder being an engineer Are entry level mechanical engineers called mechanics? This assumes that software engineering is (only) about code, which is false. > Someday tech will have it's 80s, vc will stop chasing the next apple or MS, engineers will become coders, sysadmins will become IT techs, wages will stagnate, and if you're all working till 8 it will go from extra to expected. Wages may stagnate at some point because supply may match demand. However, why would job titles deflate? The skills you refer to are not comparable to unskilled factory work.

not1ofU 4y ago

I agree, but you are trying to convince an audience made up of a "few" of the types of people who came up with those methods you raise here, or at the very least trying to get to that position. If anything you might even be provding a few of the younger ones with a road map. (joke / sort of). Source: see the reponses :-D